Help me understand the anger of Trump voters / working class white people.

[PhillyGuy]

@adaher

So yeah, voters know they are being lied to. With Clinton especially, how could they not know? She negotiated TPP but now says she opposes it.

Every national US politician this side of Bernie Sanders is pro-TPP, but has to prevaricate. Maybe Trump is an exception, just because of not knowing enough about it, but Tom Friedman is correct that Trump would be for it if he did know.

Here’s Trusted Ted’s TPP flip:

Ted Cruz changed position on Trade Promotion Authority, also called fast-track

If an economically literate politician is asked whether they would be in favor of profitable bailouts, if another world-wide great recession occurs, what do you want them to answer? The truth, that sometimes bailouts (of the company, not the owners) are needed? Then the economically literate politician loses, and someone else who is lying gets in office. Or, much worse, you get an economic illiterate who would turn a recession into an Italian-style depression.

A large portion of the US public has a deep distrust of expertise. Most Americans with cancer second-guess their oncologist and therefore die sooner. If people won’t even trust hard science when their life is at stake, how can you expect them to trust the softer (but still evidence-based) science of macro-economics?

Distrust of experts forces good (and not-so-good) politicians to oppose what they know in their intellect to be good. It’s not a Hillary thing, but something going on in both parties and almost all democracies. Probably all democracies, but I say almost all because no one can claim knowledge of all nations.

[adaher]

They don’t have to lie. They choose to lie. And voters should consider that disqualifying.

[PhillyGuy]

@adaher

They don’t have to lie. They choose to lie. And voters should consider that disqualifying.

Earlier you said you were in favor of Kasich. He does admit to favoring the TPP. One less lie than Hillary – I’ll give you that. But he then goes on to repeat the nonsense about other countries dumping (or maybe I should say gifting) goods on us at less than their costs of production.Re evidence for that claim being nonsense, I recommend:

The Fair Trade Fraud

Most likely, Kasich knows that dumping is, almost always, a myth, but also knows he has to blame other countries for America’s economic problems in order to have even a slight chance of winning the presidency.

As for Paul Ryan, the other guy you mentioned favorably in the post I’m looking at, he’s just as pure a TPP liar as Mrs. Clinton:

House Speaker Paul Ryan Demands TPP Be Renegotiated; Neglects To Mention It...

Go back and work on this agreement? Oh really? Now, this is the same Paul Ryan who (as he mentions in the interview) was the driving force behind the so-called fast track or “Trade Promotion Authority.” Though Ryan totally misrepresents what that means. He claims that the TPA gave the USTR “the ability to go negotiate trade agreements.” That’s hilariously not true.

P.S. I don’t endorse the whole contents of my last link, just what I posted

[BrainGlutton]

@adaher

Go to any factory or warehouse where goods are supposedly “Made in America”. You’ll find less American labor there than you’d like to see.

The problem is that I’ll find less labor period, because of automation, not immigration.

[adaher]

But what labor you find is increasingly foreign, often people imported on work visas. The work visa rules have never been well enforced. That’s why Disney can get away with actually firing workers and replacing them with H-1Bs. It’s illegal, but the government won’t act.

[Velocity]

OK, is there a viable solution to the gripes of the angry, hard-off middle class other than “grin and bear it?”

[adaher]

There’s no viable solutions they’d like. The days when a person could grow up in a small town, graduate high school, and make a lifetime reliable living in the local industry are gone.

They do have a legitimate beef about the abuse of our immigration laws by big corporations, and not too long ago Democrats used to agree with them 100%. Politics changed that I guess. Emerging majorities and all that. So now corporations essentially have a green light from the Democratic Party to hire whoever they want, and they already had that green light from the Republicans. But assuming we actually enforce our laws, that can reduce unemployment among Americans without college degrees somewhat. The least we can do is staff our factories and warehouses with 100% American labor. Otherwise, the “made in america” logo isn’t functionally different from a “made in china” logo.

But aside from those small steps, the road to a prosperous life is harder than it used to be. You either need a degree or a skill that’s in demand. City people seem to know that but the message hasn’t really reached rural areas. I don’t know what the solution is other than individual responsibility. We’ve been doing job training programs and college aid forever, but the vast majority of people in depressed regions still live in poverty. Of course, part of the problem is that a lot of them need to just move to where the jobs are. Perhaps instead of importing workers from Mexico to staff factories, businesses should start importing workers from West Virginia.

[Mijin]

@adaher

There’s no viable solutions they’d like. The days when a person could grow up in a small town, graduate high school, and make a lifetime reliable living in the local industry are gone.

And that’s pretty much true everywhere. The reasons why that was ever the case have one by one disappeared. We live in a service economy and you need skills now. Plus the world is changing fast and many of us need to change jobs and re-train at certain points in our career.

One might as well say once you could make a great living lighting gas lamps…that’s not the world we live in today.

The least we can do is staff our factories and warehouses with 100% American labor. Otherwise, the “made in america” logo isn’t functionally different from a “made in china” logo.

It won’t be economic. American goods will be significantly pricer than foreign alternatives, killing exports, and, unless you bar imports, you’re going to have a tough time getting Americans to buy Made in America stuff (more so than now).
I suppose you could make a 100% protectionist market; North Korea shows just how successful a model that can be.

Note that China outsources a lot of its labour now to countries where it is cheaper (e.g. Vietnam).

[you_with_the_face]

@adaher

Trump’s a charlatan, thus my fear that if he doesn’t deliver, what comes next? I think the idea here is that the establishment politicians have proven they will just lie to people, and even the ones who are sort of outsiders and newcomers will do the same. So now we’re down to people who aren’t politicians at all, so who do they turn to after Trump? A general with an ambition to run things himself and enough fellow officers from the region to maybe take a shot at DC?

If they are so disaffected, why vote at all? That’s what I don’t get. There are more options than establishment vs non-establishment candidates. None of the above is an option.

[Saint_Cad]

@you_with_the_face

Yes, but the problem is this conclusion doesn’t follow rationally.

Wait! You think Americans are rational when it comes to politics?!

[msmith537]

@adaher

There’s no viable solutions they’d like. The days when a person could grow up in a small town, graduate high school, and make a lifetime reliable living in the local industry are gone.

It sounds like the viable solution the people you describe want is to fix America to a idealized, culturally homogenous, Norman Rockwell version of the 1950s agricultural/manufacturing town.

That America is no longer economically viable. At least not in the sense that it used to be. Interconnectivity, globalization and economies of scale are slowing removing the barriers between people and communities. The tiny manufacturing plant in Sandusky, Ohio can now sell it’s products on a global market. The downside is it also has to compete with similar tiny manufacturers all over the world.

@adaher

But aside from those small steps, the road to a prosperous life is harder than it used to be. You either need a degree or a skill that’s in demand. City people seem to know that but the message hasn’t really reached rural areas. I don’t know what the solution is other than individual responsibility.

It’s more than just “individual responsibility”. I get that rural folk are big on self sufficiency. Running a farm, you are responsible for doing stuff, otherwise it doesn’t get done. It also allows you to be largely self sufficient.

But the rest of the modern world doesn’t work like that. It’s comprised of complex systems and networks of which each of us play a small part. If people are excluded from those networks by geography or education or other barriers, they can’t just grab a fishing pole and live off the land like the hunter/gatherers of old.

Not only do city people “get this”, more and more people outside of cities are getting this as well. Hence the global trend in urbanization. 30 years ago, cities were looked at as a decaying core. Now (some) are becoming centers of technology, economic growth and culture.

@adaher

Perhaps instead of importing workers from Mexico to staff factories, businesses should start importing workers from West Virginia.

Why is a worker imported from out of state less objectionable to one from another country?

[BigT]

@you_with_the_face

If they are so disaffected, why vote at all? That’s what I don’t get. There are more options than establishment vs non-establishment candidates. None of the above is an option.

Because someone is offering them hope. And they’re saying what they want to hear: it’s all the government’s fault. If you get rid of them, we can fix all your problems. If we get rid of these immigrants taking your jobs, you can be wealthy again. Kick out these Muslims who are secretly trying to undermine your way of life.

The world was better before, as far as they are concerned, so they support anyone championing for getting rid of the changes. In that sense, they are 100% true conservatives.

[you_with_the_face]

@Saint_Cad

Wait! You think Americans are rational when it comes to politics?!

Not at all. At least not always! In reading your post, it seemed to me you were positing a rational position for Trump support. Other posters seem to speculating along the same lines.

It’s obvious to me that Trump is attracting irrational voters who favor style over substance. His support tracks with race only because Trump is a white guy and the American public, by and large, is racially biased (especially those who identify as Republican and especially those who susceptible to irrationality).

Trump supporters may think their choice is based on well-reasoned judgment, but then again, so do people who religiously play the lotto. I don’t think their motivation is any more complicated that this. To his base, Trump “looks” like the slot machine that will payout…even though in truth it’s just as rigged as all the other million before it. His bells and whistles are just louder than the others.

Trump supporters may very well be angrier than the typical American. Could their anger be caused by their unpleasant circumstances? Most definitely. Or it could be they are just wired to be angry people who are attracted to other angry people. Trump feeds this appetite in them.

[BigT]

The problems with the TPP are not the actual trade parts. It’s mostly all the riders. It’s dirty politics that was all written in secret, so no one could object until it was completely formed. That means it’s just got to be 51% good stuff and people will support it, rather than say “No. Go renegotiate. This additional bullshit is not acceptable.”

They could have made sure that there were representatives who would balk at the riders there. Make sure there’s appropriate representation, at least, for the democratic countries. They didn’t.

[BrainGlutton]

@Mijin

Note that China outsources a lot of its labour now to countries where it is cheaper (e.g. Vietnam).

And before long, Vietnam will be outsourcing it to someplace in Africa.

But not to Detroit. Even Vietnam has standards.

[BrainGlutton]

@msmith537

It’s more than just “individual responsibility”. I get that rural folk are big on self sufficiency. Running a farm, you are responsible for doing stuff, otherwise it doesn’t get done. It also allows you to be largely self sufficient.

But the rest of the modern world doesn’t work like that. It’s comprised of complex systems and networks of which each of us play a small part. If people are excluded from those networks by geography or education or other barriers, they can’t just grab a fishing pole and live off the land like the hunter/gatherers of old.

And they probably can’t run farms any more, either. Most American farmland is now owned by agribiz corps for whom the “farmers” are but hired hands.

[stillownedbysetters]

Why can’t we train people in rural areas to do the increasing number of jobs that can successfully be done remotely? I realize training programs have a poor record of success, but if you simply can’t shoehorn the boy out of Podunk Junction, perhaps you can find him a remote access job that can allow him to stay there and still be a part of the overall American workforce.

We eliminated, or can eliminate, so many of the reasons why a worker has to be physically present in order to be effective. And not all jobs suitable for remote access necessarily require extensive education. Has a solution such as this not been looked into at all? Or has it been considered and discarded for some reason? I honestly don’t know, but would like to know.

I work for an international company that recently ‘insourced’ our entire worldwide credit department. Instead of having one big credit department with hundreds of employees located in our international headquarters, we how have a group of home-based remote workers located all over the world. These aren’t highly technical jobs. Some are, but the majority are largely clerical in nature. Since my employer is an agricultural company, we committed to acquiring remote credit workers in numerous rural areas throughout the country. So far, so good, for our company at least.

Granted something like this wouldn’t constitute a single source solution, but surely there are other, similar, ideas that could work.

Regarding politics, the working class whites are a group who has been over promised and under delivered, if not outright lied to, for quite some time now. Of course they are angry and don’t trust the government or politicians or any ilk. As their lifestyle and means of employment erode and disappear, they are being increasingly marginalized. It is this kind of pressure that turns a population towards an attractive, charismatic, autocrat who offers simple slogans with which no one can argue. These slogans may have no underpinnings, no rational means to move anyone forward, but they sound good, they feel good, and they play to the crowd. I’m not equating Trump with Idi Amin, but he understands his audience and plays to them.

If Trump doesn’t win - or if he wins and turns his back on these erstwhile supporters - what will happen with them? He may have awakened a sleeping giant.

[MOIDALIZE]

I see two problems with trying to integrate the flyover white working class into the economy:

1. If it could be done for white people, why not for black people in the decaying inner city?

2. It would require a high degree of cooperation and planning between government and business.

[BrainGlutton]

@msmith537

Why is a worker imported from out of state less objectionable to one from another country?

Seconded. You really need to answer this, adaher.

[carnivorousplant]

@stillownedbysetters

It is this kind of pressure that turns a population towards an attractive, charismatic,

I thought that we were speaking of Donald Trump.