# Help me understand the concept of nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421 "2003-07-05T18:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/21 "2003-07-06T21:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AskNott \* > \*\*Is Nothing Sacred? \*\* That does it. I was wondering whether to post a section from the RPG book Murphy’s World. That post made it clear that I must. Sadly I don’t own a copy and must post from memory > [@](#): > > They worship Nothing. When they enter their temples, nothing is there to greet them. When they leave, nothing remains. They ask for nothing and recieve nothing. They give thanks saying ‘Thanks for nothing.’. On sacred days, they are to refrain from all activity of any kind. Those who forsake this duty will admit with great shame ‘I didn’t do nothing.’ Seriously, think of The Neverending Story. ‘A hole would be something. But this was nothing.’ Empty space is a something. Beyond the universe is nothing. There is no something containing the universe. Beyond the edge is nothing. No time. No space. Zip. Zilch. Nada. ``` The whole thing is quite Zen, as other posters have said. Find a Zen teacher and say "I wish to know nothing.". You'll get a very positive response. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/22 "2003-07-06T22:21:03Z")
**DocCathode** , your sig is actually quite appropriate: “Nothing is impossible if you can imagine it.” If you can imagine “nothing”, then you’re imagining _something_, so it can’t be nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/23 "2003-07-06T23:18:36Z")
To state that there is a complete absence of matter or dimension (in whatever form) outside the four dimensional curved time space of our universe may not be completely accurate. While our ability to _observe_ phenomenon is indeed constrained by the limits of our local continuum, this in no way precludes the potential manifestation of substance or form external to our known universe. There are many theories detailing the existence of parallel or multiple universes. Similar to an agglomeration of several large abutting (but not directly communicating) bubbles, multiple universes may well be in simultaneous existence. It has long been thought that black holes may represent conduits to these otherwise inaccessible realms. We are unable to assign any definition to whatever may (or may not) exist outside the boundaries of local time space precisely because we cannot observe whatever putative properties such a region might possess. It is not nothingness, it is merely unobservable. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/24 "2003-07-06T23:25:09Z")
If you cannot observe something, it can be effectively said not to exist. Speculation about what may or may not lie “beyond” the observable universe is pointless, since you can never make any observations to confirm it. By definition the universe _is_ everything that exists, so there isn’t anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/25 "2003-07-07T02:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by culov \* > \*\* > Finally, can anyone suggest any books that i can read about this topic? Please try to keep them as simple as possible. > > Thanks, > > culov \*\* [Flatland](http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/) - note that this is not non-fiction, but rather a short novel which sorta illustrates this idea on the layperson’s level. A fun and interesting read (though quite misogynistic, 19th century and all). It’s available in its entirety online. Another book I’d recommend is Hawking’s **A Brief History of Time** - more about black holes, but still very well written for the layman in understanding the nature of the universe. and BTW, I am a complete layman, but enthusiast about this stuff. Still, I can’t quite wrap my brain around most of it. Physics at the very large and very small ends just gets so darn counter-intuitive. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/26 "2003-07-07T02:12:34Z")
Another good book for non-mathematicians is Brian Greene’s [_The Elegant Universe_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375708111/qid=1057544361/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-5704010-1812916?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/27 "2003-07-07T02:18:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Moe \* > \*\*[Flatland](http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/) - note that this is not non-fiction, but rather a short novel which sorta illustrates this idea on the layperson’s level. A fun and interesting read (though quite misogynistic, 19th century and all). It’s available in its entirety online. > > \*\* Actually, [this](http://ry4an.org/flatland/) is a better link for Flatland. The other one seems to omit illustrations. ---
**Author:** ![t\_leave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@t\_leave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t_leave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/28 "2003-07-07T06:32:10Z")
**Markxxx** Weirder still, if something is expanding into nothing, then this means that everything is expanding into nothing. If everything is expanding into nothing, then why is it expanding at all? The very process or ability of expansion is within the set of something. If this is incorrect, then motion itself is nothing. If motion itself is nothing, then why do we bother to percieve it or intentionally engage in it? If the process and/or ability of expansion is something, and over the course of infinity, all somethings become nothing, then it follows that motion itself would eventually become nothing, at which point we would cease to perceive even the memory of motion, change etc… There are two conclusions from this line of thinking: 1.) We are delusionally opting to act as if motion were occurring even though it is not! 2.) There is no such thing as nothing… nothing itself is the delusion. ---
**Author:** ![biker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ce7236/32.png) [@biker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/29 "2003-07-07T06:36:55Z")
dr. sagan (the billions and billions guy on the johnny carson show) said, "imagine you could walk off in space and drop bread crumbs behind you. eventually you will return to your line of crumbs." i’ve never been able to think “nothing” beyond than that. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421/30 "2003-07-07T13:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QueenJbean \* > \*\*The History of Zero - I think it’s called that, it details the mathematical concept of nothing. > Unfortunately I can’t remember who wrote it. \*\* I believe you’re referring to [Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140296476/qid=1057584494/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9816211-1169652?v=glance&s=books). An excellent book. I strongly recommend it, though it addresses only the mathematical concept of nothing, not the philosophic concept of nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-the-concept-of-nothing/186421.md?page=1)