There’s a little under 37 million documented that we know about.
Explain to me how a sovereign nation, with a larger population than mine (Canada), that speaks its own language, and has a longer and richer history than than the USA, is akin to one of your smaller states???
boggle
Suppose it was found that Russians on the order of Putin messed with the plane and took it down deliberately. Would this mean war? Not sure if Poland is part of any alliances we’re in like NATO or something, but what would happen then?
psst - Yogsosoth - see post 15.
I have no doubt that massive Polish armies are gearing up to march on Moscow as we speak.
One of the more vocal and active members of NATO, I might add.
Getting back to the OP, I’ll take a more detailed crack at it, based on the list of passengers on the flight manifest, which nameless helpfully quoted over in his thread in GD:
I’m going to re-order them in terms of position to help figure out the context, and relying on the CIA World Factbook entry on Poland and Google/wiki entries to help make the comparisons:
A. Elected Positions
**1. Executive **
Lech Kaczyński, President of Poland: Chief of States. It sounds like the Polish President has a different package of powers than the President of the United States, but he’s more than just a ceremonial figure, so the closest analogue would be the POTUS, so pencil in Barack Obama as the equivalent.
2. Legislative
Poland has a bicameral National Assembly, consisting of the lower house, the Sejm, and the upper house, the Senat. Equivalents would be the House of Representatives and the Senate, respectively. (I don’t know which House is more powerful, compared to the US Representatives/Senate, so I’ll just use the formal lower/upper house distinction.)
(a) Sejm
Krzysztof Putra, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
Jerzy Szmajdziński, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
Leszek Deptuła, member of the Sejm
Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
Grażyna Gęsicka, member of the Sejm
Przemysław Gosiewski, member of the Sejm
Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, member of the Sejm
Sebastian Karpiniuk, member of the Sejm
Aleksandra Natalli-Świat, member of the Sejm
Arkadiusz Rybicki, member of the Sejm
Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, member of the Sejm
Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
Wiesław Woda, member of the Sejm
Edward Wojtas, member of the Sejm
I don’t know if the Speaker and Deputy Speakers are partisan or non-partisan in the Polish system, so hard to put a clear analogue here - however, in most parliamentary systems, the Deputy Speakers tend to be well-respected, senior members of the House, chosen by the members of the House - so at a guess, I’ll pencil in the House Majority Leader, Steny Hoyer and the House Majority Whip, James Clyburn.
With respect to all of the members listed, I don’t have any way to rank these people in terms of political significance, but the Sejm currently has 460 members. Fourteen died in the plane crash, or 3% of the total membership. That would be the equivalent of thirteen members of the House of Representatives.
(b) Senat
Krystyna Bochenek, Deputy Speaker of the Senat
Janina Fetlińska, member of the Senat
Stanisław Zając, member of the Senate
With respect to the Deputy Speaker, same comment as for the Deputy Speakers of the Sejm; let’s use the Majority Leader of the Senate, Harry Reid. Again, I have no way to assess the political importance of these three members, but since the Polish Senat has 100 members, it would be the same as if three members of the United States Senate died.
B. Non-Elected Government Positions
1. Civil Service
Władysław Stasiak, Chief of the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland - sounds like the equivalent to the President’s Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel
Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland - I not sure how powerful this position is. However, since foreign relations is one of the duties of the President of Poland, it sounds like it may be the equivalent to the U.S Secretary of State. If so, the equivalent is Hilary Clinton.
Mariusz Handzlik, Undersecretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland - if the analogue to US State is correct, then the analogue here is the Deputy Secretary of State, James Steinberg.
Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs - if the term Deputy Minister has the same meaning as in parliamentary systems in the west, this would be a senior public servant, deputy to the elected Minsiter of Foreign Affairs, and probably with overlapping duties with the Undersecretary of State.
Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman - I don’t think there is an equivalent in the U.S. federal government.
Tomasz Merta, Undersecretary of the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage - senior public servant in the Ministry; no direct equivalent, but you could probably put in the Under Secretary of Education as an equivalent.
Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland - this is Poland’s central bank, so the equivalent would be Ben Bernanke, Chair of the Federal Reserve.
2. Military
Aleksander Szczygło, head of the National Security Bureau - this sounds like the equivalent of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so the equivalent would be Admiral Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
General Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff - I would assume the equivalent is the Chief of Staff of the United States Army, General George Casey Jr.
Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta, Commander-in-chief of the Polish Navy I would assume the equivalent is the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Gary Roughead
Bishop Mirosław Chodakowski, Orthodox Ordinary of the Polish Army
Tadeusz Płoski, bishop of the Military Ordinariate of the Polish Army - looks like the Polish Army has chaplaincy branches for both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox members; the US equivalent would likely be the Chief Chaplain, Major General Douglas Carver
C. Ceremonial/Historical Positions
Maria Kaczyńska, First Lady of Poland - Michelle Obama would be the equivalent
Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile - no direct equivalent, but a possible option would be the oldest suriviving former President, Jimmy Carter.
Anna Walentynowicz, free trade union activist, member of Solidarity - no direct equivalent
D. Non-Government Positions
Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance - no idea; President of the Smithsonian, perhaps?
Piotr Nurowski, President of the Polish Olympic Committee - Larry Probst, Chair of the United States Olympic Committee
Maciej Płażyński, President of the Polish Community association - no idea what this is.
Andrzej Przewoźnik, Secretary-General of the Council for the Defence of the Memory of Struggle and Suffering - at a guess, Fred S. Zeidman, Chairman of the United States Holocaust Museum
Ryszard Rumianek, Rector of the Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University - looks like this is a major university affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, so perhaps the equivalent would be the President of Notre Dame.
I’m certain open to correction at my attempts at analogues; would be pleased to have any comments from any Polish Dopers.
Truly, a national tragedy - such a large number of talented public officials - my condolences to the people of Poland.
The President is not the executive, though. The executive is headed by the PM and his cabinet, as in a parliamentary system. I don’t think there is any US equivalent. The closest equivalent would probably be another parliamentary government on the continent, like the President of Germany, maybe.
I was using it in the term “Executive Branch.” I don’t think President of Germany is an accurate comparison, since it sounds like Poland has a constitution more like that of France and Russia, where you have a President with some real authority, particularly in foreign affairs, than is the case with a figurehead President/strong Chancellor as in Germany.
I didn’t realize the German President was a figurehead, since I immediately thought of President von Hinderburg appoint Adolf Hitler Chancellor.
The current German government is set up differently than the one in 1933? Who would have thought. :dubious:
See the wiki article on the President of Germany. During the Weimar period, the President had substantial powers, including the power to rule by decree during terms of political crisis. Because of the great instability in the Reichstag, rule by decree became almost normal during Hindenberg’s final period in office, which helped pave the way for Hitler’s centralization of power. After the war, the drafters of the Basic Law for West Germany drastically reduced the power of the President, and also introduced measures to ceate greater stability in the Bundestag, including the system for the appointment of the Chancellor.
Anna Walentynowicz, free trade union activist, member of Solidarity - a US equivalent, in terms of historical and symbolic significance, might be Rosa Parks.
I once heard that Anna Walentynowiczwas to Solidarity and the trade union movement in Poland what Rosa Parks was to the civil rights movment in the USA. Not sure how apt it is but this may help people understand that her death by itself would be a “big deal” in Poland, even without everyone else on that plane.
Many thanks, Northern Piper, for that thoughtful and detailed analogy.
Yes, I was boggling about this as well. It shows a rather, shall we say, warped world view.
Sorry, Bookkeeper, I was composing the reply and getting the wiki link (and the computer at work here handles linking slightly differently than at home) when you posted. I also took a phonecall when posting and hadn’t seen your comment.
Oh well great minds think alike, I guess.
You’re welcome. I found it an interesting comparative task.
I do believe that the Polish President’s main power is the Veto. I don’t know if it applies to domestic law but he certainly used it to screw around with the EU a lot, any other particular influence he has is simply due to his position i.e. people listen when he talks rather than constitutionally defined powers (although I believe he gets to choose who forms a government if there is no majority.)
Interestingly he was very unpopular in certain segments of Polish society so a lot of the mourning does ring false to me…
As for the cracks about it being an old plane - there was nothing wrong with it - The US President’s plane is the same age More on the crash in Russia
If I was to be spectacularly uncharitable I might even blame the President himself for the crash (conspiracy theory time) he famously tried to force a pilot to land in Georgia during the Russian - Georgian crisis when the pilot thought it unsafe. The pilot refused and landed elsewhere - then got fired.(Can’t find a cite right now - google is too fogged up)
The air strip they were attempting to land at here was very close to where the memorial was to take place, if they were diverted they wouldn’t have made it on time to an incredibly important event. So I could imagine that there was a lot of pressure from the higher ups on the pilot, and since the last guy got fired…
Yes, it seems to take almost nothing for various brainless media types to drop into “OMG the plane wasn’t new!” mode. In rare cases (e.g. Aloha 243) it can be relevant. But here, the age of the plane is likely to be about as relevant as the age of the runway the pilot was hoping to land on.
That made me think of a question. Does the Polish economy have anything to do with why all these people were on the same plane? It would make sense as a cost cutting measure.