Help me understand this anti-Intelligent Design argument

I think some of the points that have been made here, based upon the metaphorical notion that even the most unlikely hand is bound to show up in the cards if you deal enough games, is true as far as it goes but fails to genuinely address the “Blind Watchmaker” fallacy.

A watch is a constructed object; this is clear by opening the case and looking at the works (we’re assuming an analog watch here, of course). There are no extra parts, and removal or modification of any individual component is likely to render the entire machine inoperative. If we were walking about the Galapagos Island with our friend Chuck and came across a functional watch-like object formed of lava slag sticking out of the ground, we’d be highly (and correctly) suspicious that anything so useful could have simply fallen together naturally. There is a chance, of course, for anything to happen, but the odds against it are so vast that the likelihood of such a device being randomly formed, even once, are many orders of magnitude greater than the lifespan of the Sun, or indeed, of the universe. (And, of course, in the days before modern understanding of geography, the life of the planet was assumed to be measured in the thousands, rather than unimaginable billions of years, even by those who were not dogmatically locked into the claims of Biblical Creation in Genesis.)

So, applying the same logic–by analogy–to the even more complex mechanisms of life, it would seem utterly preposterous to assert that life could arise from the muck (abiogenesis), and even more unlikely that “random” events would form toward the end result of the highly optimized, self-aware, bipedal form of man. The problem with that argument is that it is, as indicated, based upon analogy, which is the most slippery method of asserting a position ever devised by philosophers and argumentarians of all colors. An analogy starts by making assumptions about the relationship between the two compared concepts and results in conclusions that are inherently based on the validity of those assumptions. In the case of comparing a fabricated engine, such as a clockworks, to a living organism, there are a number of ways in which the assumptions do not follow.

For instance, as noted, a clockworks is constructed externally. It has no means to replicate itself. A “mutation”–say, damage or breakage of one of the sprockets–cannot be carried on to the next watch down the line. It can’t improve via “natural selection”, or indeed, any form of selection that doesn’t involve human intervention. A watch is also a dedicated device with a specific purpose. A watch can’t measure temperature, or write a sonnet, or order a drink. It does one thing–keep track of the passing of time via the controlled release of mechanically-stored potential energy–and every bit of its works are dedicated to this goal; the removal of any one part renders it immobile.

With consideration to these points, it is clear that even the simplest form of life is not like a watch at all. Life is very robust; it is usually (nearly always, actually) capable of repairing cellular and genetic damage and degradation via its mechanisms. Even with the loss or damage of a significant amount of genetic code it is still able to continue functioning and can reproduce; on the rare occasion that such a modification actually provides some benefit to its ability to reproduce, it passes this onto its offspring, and they to theirs, and so forth, so that the benefit may propagate itself indefinitely and allow its recipients to predominate over its less-able brethren.

And while a watch is constructed with a specific goal, the anthropic notion that life, and in particular humanity, follows the same principle is a quasi-solipsistic, self-centric notion; like the puddle mentioned in a previous post which is amazed at how well the ground fits it (and nods to the late Douglas Adams who is credited with cracking that insightful joke), we assume that the world is built for us because it provides all that we need, instead of recognizing that the fit is so convenient because we evolved to make use of the resources at hand, and that those creatures do didn’t fit so well (or didn’t cope with environmental changes) long ago gave up their claim. We are not watches, or automobiles, or Sony Playstations; we are highly adaptive organisms who came to predominate precisely because we are robust and can create new methods and tools to let us accomplish functions that we are clearly neither designed nor evolved to perform, such as flying through the air or swimming underwater.

As for the irreducible complexity argument: unlike a clockworks, in which a single missing part renders the whole inoperable and which has but one single functional result, life occurs in various stages of development, from single celled organisms with no nuclear structure to highly complex, massively differentially multicellular bodies. Irreducible complexity might make sense if babies emerged in infant form straight from the ground, or if our genetic code were unique from every other living thing; but in fact, we share the great bulk of our genes with most other complex organisms. The inherent assertion of natural selection, and backed up by over a century of cladistic and genetic taxonomic study and research, is that every characteristic is a development of the phenotypes of preceding species, and are often functionally unrelated as with our inner ear mechanisms for hearing (the anvil, hammer, and stirrup bones being derived from the gill arches of jawless fish and the jaw bones of early reptiles). We did not, after all, emerge fully formed from the primordial ooze (or ocean vents, or whatnot) but came to be via a long and undirected (but not random, in the sense that genotypes were randomly jumbled together) path from a very simple, self-replicating pre-living protein to become Harvard Law graduates, romance novelists, and reality TV contestants, which when you think about it isn’t really that far at all.

One particular organ that is often touted by ID proponents as a prime example of irreducible complexity is the vertebrate eye; that elimination of any of the individual components (lens, cornea, retina, et cetera) would render the entire organ useless, and that it is vastly unlikely that the individual components would have evolved separately to make such a functional whole. This is stated in apparent obliviousness to the fact that, indeed, these components didn’t evolve independently but rather, the entire organ, as a functional unit, came about to its current level of development with each component being successively “optimized” i.e. providing benefit to the organ as a whole, and to the body using it, and ultimately, to the genes for which the body is a carrier. The vertebrate eye is, in fact, a rotten example of intelligent design; anyone familiar with the anatomy of the invertebrate octopus (the phylum of which evolved the eye completely independently of us spinebackers) will recognize that the optical gear on that much maligned creature is actually better assembled. It is also worth noting that nearly every stage of development, from the pre-focus pinhole-type eye (which can see only movement in light and dark) to full color, autofocus, adjustable intensity hardware can be seen in the various species of class Cephalopoda, making it clear that, indeed, one need not have all the components in place in order to have an organ that does something beneficial.

Irreducible complexity is, in fact, a way of going from the admission that “we don’t know how” to “ergo, it must be impossible”. This is clearly an argumentum ad ignorantium. Such arguments have been repeatably falsified; however, whenever that occurs, the proponents merely recede back to other, as-yet-unexplained phenomena and claim a standing victory, which is a bit like keeping yourself from falling off a precarious cliff by crabbing along the edge.

Fundamentally, the reason that life exists it because it is successful at propagating itself. This may seem like a bootstrapping argument, but that is in fact the only claim necessary. Life is complex because it is able to retain increasingly developed characteristics that permit it to propagate more effectively. Life emerged as a simple, self-replicating pattern of molecules, and has evolved into the complex forms seen today not as a random throw of an enormous cup of dice to score a GigaYatzee but a meandering, goal-less path, winnowed by competition for scarce resources with other creatures and against environmental challenges. It’s conceptually straightforward (if highly complex in the details) game theory. No god or gods required.

An excellent read on this topic is Richard Dawkins’ The Blind Watchmaker and/or Climbing Mount Improbable. which are, I’ve found, the most comprehensive nontechnical books on the topic. Stephen J Gould’s The Structure of Evolutionary Theory is interesting, too, but very long and often rambling, complete with his contentious conceptual stands on punctuated equilbrium (but valuable for his expansion on the contibution of environment and embryonic development as well as genetic coding). I have’t read Ernst Mayr’s What Evolution Is (yet), but it is highly thought of. And one is never amiss to read up on Darwin himself, especially The Origin of Species and The Descent of Man. Darwin might be well over a century dead but the points and observations he makes, even in the pre-Mendelian knowledge of biology in which he labored are as insightful and correct today as anything stated by modern evolutionary scientists.

Stranger

That’s exactly what I was looking for! Thanks DrFidelius.

(And thanks to everyone else for their repsonses!)

Which one is better? I need to get some light reading for my upcoming vacation.

Reading this thread, I can’t help but smile when I remember an OP from a year or two ago that said something like this: “If evolution is true, then how come all life forms have a tendency towards procreation? Sounds a little coincidental to me.” To that OP’s credit, it didn’t take much explaining to enlighten him.

Fantastic post Stranger!

So…in response to the assertion that the cosmos is just right to support human life implies a god, one would point out that if god really wanted us, we’d exist no matter what the basic conditions of the cosmos? That is, show me that with a different gravitational constant we’d still exist and then I’ll believe that there’s a god who created us?

I don’t know that either of them exactly qualifies as light reading; while written for a nontechnical audience, Dawkins does get down into some of the finer details of the procreation habits of fig wasps or the adapative mechanisms behind the way spiders construct a web. These topics are interesting in their own right, but he goes into more detail than, say, a typical Scientific American article on the topic, and he can get kind of pedantic. I’d have to say that Climbing Mount Improbable is the better-written of the two books by a narrow margin (benefiting from his greater experience in writing at that point), but The Blind Watchmaker is more pithy, save for his screed into a campaign for athiesm in the last chapter. (It’s not that I disagree with him, but the tone and non sequitar of the argument was annoying even to me, and his attitude in this vein has become even more pronounced in recent books.)

If you are looking for some more enjoyable and more general reading on evolution and natural selection, I’d recommend one of Stephen J. Gould’s books of essays (most of which were originally published in Natural History Magazine) such as Ever Since Darwin, Bully for Brontasaurus, The Panda’s Thumb, or Hen’s Teeth and Horse’s Toes (the latter of which I’m reading through right now). While I don’t agree with all of Gould’s claims (I find the general concept of species- and even group-level selection somewhat questionable) he does readily dispell any number of myths and misunderstandings about natural selection while avoiding narrow-minded reductionism (like the reductionist single-cause approach that has unfortunately arisen from an overarching application of gene-centric “selfish gene” theory) and snarky, cutting remarks to his competitors and opponents. (Indeed, in Ever Since Darwin he presents an effective apology and explaination for the pre-Mendelian rejection of Darwin’s “descent with modification”.) Gould is also eminantly readable, rarely getting irreversably bogged down in niggling details that are more of interest to professional taxanomists and molecular biologists than the general nonprofessional population. In fact, quite aside from the content of his works, as an essayist he’s the same class as Aldous Huxley or E. B. White (and on occasion as satirical as Twain or Johnson).

Stranger

Stranger, what I consider light reading may be pretty heavy for the world at large. I get much more out of, say, Sagan than I do out of Danielle Steele. But I do have my limits.

I find Sagan to be very readable, while I find Gould (in Bully) to be a bit of a chore. How does Dawkins compare to those two?

Nah. The June 2005 issue of Scientific American discusses this very subject, i.e. if the so-called “constants” of our universe weren’t quite so.

Imagine if you will (though I understand most cosmologist would disagree - theory provided for example only) that the universe exists on a cycle; Big Bang, formation of particles, rapid expansion, condensing into starts, cooling, collapsing, Big Crunch (i.e. all the matter in the universe eventually succumbs to gravity and falls into a mega-singularity), then Big Bang again, with the “new” universe having slightly different physical laws. Clearly, this cycle could repeat literally forever and it is only when the laws are just right that carbon-based lifeforms such as ourselves can form to ask questions like this.
As a minor addition to part of Stranger’s excellent post:

Not all mutations offer benefits, but if they don’t cause harm, they can persist in an organism and its offspring. Then perhaps many generations later, there could be some environmental change and the creatures with previously-benign-but-now-useful-mutant-gene-X will outbreed those without, and within several generations the entire population will have descended from the survivors and thus will carry gene X. The organism did not spontaneously change when confronted with an altered environment (a major stumbling block, I’ve observed, to ID/Creationism proponents and displayed when they try to debunk the made-up notion of a T-Rex “evolving” into a pigeon). Rather, only those organisms that already had a survival mechanism, did.

It need not even require an environmental change; a subtle, incremental modification can quite suddenly provide new faculty that makes an organism better able to adapt and survive. Imagine, for instance, a primative insect with heat-radiating fins sticking out of its back. Owing to some mutation (phenotypical reinforcement of the developmental genes that determine how large the fin grows) gives a larger-than-normal fin; sufficient for the insect to be picked up and blown over to another area; now, our insect friend (we’ll call him Mr. Flye) has reproductive access to all kinds of babes…er…females that aren’t in his native pool. But, never one to be tied down, Flye takes to the sky once his work is done and moves on to another population, spreading his genes all around. A few generations down the road, one of Flye’s great-great-great-great-et cetera grandsons starts working out and builds up some muscles so that, not only can he be picked up by the wind but can control his movement in it to some extent. Again, Leetle Flye is going to be a Man About Town, spreading his seed like a Baptist Revivalist spreads The Word.

In retrospect, the fossil record (assuming the Flye family makes it into the books) seems to show some kind of rapid mutation, moving into an available niche and “punctuating the equilibria”. But punctuated equilibrium is an artifact of the fossil record, not some conceptual trigger or physical mechanism for a change in mutation or an alteration in the mechanism of natural selection. And the environmental niche that the Flyes exploit wasn’t an existing hole waiting to be filled, any more than, in replacing candlemakers, light bulb manufacturers also filled in the public need for photographic projection and the Brite-Lite.

In short, ID’s claims write checks that its facts can’t cash. Real scientists (good ones, anyway) are honest enough to admit what they don’t know and refrain from filling in the cracks with supernatural-colored spackle.

Stranger

I found Climbing Mount Improbable interesting but I think its computer simulations are susceptible to attack as really an example of intelligent design. The origination of the entity that evolves and the conditions under which it does evolve are established by an intelligent designer.

True, intelligent design doesn’t allow for evolutionary improvement in a basically irreducibly complex entity, but creationists are pretty slippery when it comes to debate on such things.

Fenris, two answers, depending on the question:

(1) Remember, we are the watch. The refutation you cite is a form of the anthropic principle. Plenty of links out there that explain this principle more. This answers the cosmological portion. I frnakly wasn’t aware that ID proponents were casting their nets this far out, I thought their scope was restricted to earthbound biological evolution (or non-evolution).

(2) I do not believe this is the ‘standard refutation’ (I was unclear if that was your term or Stewart’s). The standard refutation is to show how evolution provides a mechanism for those billions and billions of variables to line up juuuuuust right to produce a universe capable of creating life. This mechanism is of course evolution. Since we have a theoretical mechanism that accounts for the billions and billions of variables lining up just so, and we have a large amount of empirical and supporting evidence from many different fields that this mechanism is actually out there in this ol’ universe, we postulate that this mechanism is a better explanation for the watch than any other theory. This answers the biological portion.

I understand, I just wanted to head off the standard ID doggerel that that dinosaurs were standing around one day, saw the meteor, looked at each other and one said “We’d all better grow some feathers, and fast!

One way of looking at it is that life may be so darn prevelent, in this (big bang created) universe, and in the multiverse, and that life can and will find ways of traveling within a universe and between universes and adapt to new laws of physics wherever whenever it is that it’s going to make due with anything. Because life will adapt to thrive in whatever universe, we assume everything is perfect, but in reality God has just created something that can adapt to anything.

I appreciate the compliment, but just for clarifiction’s sake ('cause I don’t want to leave anyone with the impression that I ever, even a little, believed in intelligent design! :slight_smile: ) I didn’t need enlightenment regarding ID in the first place. I went into this thread thinking that Intelligent Design was bullshit. What I didn’t understand was one of the rebuttals to ID. I just wanted to make sure I understand my side’s argument/debate better and a bunch of posts helped clear that up for me!
Thanks again to everyone who’s posted.

He wasn’t talking about you.

I know I’m not the brightest bulb on the string, and I’m as (or more) guilty as the next guy when it comes to skipping long posts, but geez, do I feel like chopped liver. (And my example allowed for non-big-crunch cycling as well.)

As I mentioned above, I tend to skip long posts. I notice that I do that more and more lately, but I got sucked into yours with no regrets. (The name recognition helped.) Posts like yours help me justify my eight bucks.

Um, unless, of course, you were the OP from the thread a year or to ago that it was in reference to.

Well, here’s my argument, for what it’s worth.

True, the watch did not spontaneously spring into being, or “evolve” in the manner we understand it. The watch was created, by an intelligent being. However…our world is filled with MILLIONS of watches, all created by MILLIONS of intelligent beings. Not just ONE. So if you apply this to Intelligent Design theory, it suggests that our universe is the work of not a single God, but a legion of Gods, all working in concert or in opposition to each other.

Christians don’t like this rebuttal because it suggests they are arguing in favor of pantheism, which of course defeats their whole agenda. :smiley: Frankly, I kinda like the idea…sometimes you can even see it in action, like the Daytona 500 several years ago when a group of Gods conspired to bring Dale Earnhardt into the lead, only to be confronted by another God that threw a rock and popped his tire on the final lap. Or…something like that.

Well, actually, if a human were to travel to a universe where, say, carbon bonds were not as secure, all the organic molecules in that human’s body could instantly disintegrate. There won’t be time for biological evolution, though I suppose that culture could send in machines composed of molecular structures better suited to that universe, or possibly build something unstable that is just barely held together with magnetic fields (in our universe) but which is perfectly structurally sound in universe B and can wander freely, gathering information.

Of course, if we ever got technology along the lines of a “personal superstring insulation device” that could all a person to adjust his/her local reality, this whole “God” concept will seem downright quaint.

Yeah, unless that.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

The argument that gets me is the watch/TV set/jet fighter. What the IC people can’t seem to get is that you can take any 2 parts of a jet fighter, stick them together, and get something useful.

Yeah? Well, what if that man’s son made the trip instead? Better yet, 1/1000000th of the trip. And his son made the next 1/1000000th of the trip? How would son #999999 fare?