# Help me understand this variation of the recent protests. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513 "2014-12-06T18:23:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![justmeetee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@justmeetee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justmeetee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/1 "2014-12-06T18:23:50Z")
I see the news reports of the protests around the county sparked by grand juries not charging police officers. The protesters in Madison Wi. are asking that a new jail NOT be built and those committing “crimes of poverty” not be imprisoned. The way I’m understanding this is they are saying a poor person should be allowed to take whatever they wish and not be prosecuted. Am I missing something? Should those that work to provide for themselves and their families be ok with someone taking that away simply because they are poorer? And who decides at what income level someone can plead poverty as a defense for robbing a liquor store or mugging someone on the street? I completely understand the outrage over the way our country’s police forces have become more and more militaristic and heavy handed. As an ex over the road trucker and and a lifelong “biker” I have had more then my share of interactions with law enforcement and have very little trust in them. But I also understand their need in a civilized society. So this isn’t a question about cops. It’s an honest desire to understand why as a civilized society we should excuse “crimes of poverty”. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/2 "2014-12-06T18:51:18Z")
I don’t think you are understanding crimes of poverty. People are going to jail for failure to pay fines and court fees the can not afford to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/3 "2014-12-06T19:14:22Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I don’t think you are understanding crimes of poverty. People are going to jail for failure to pay fines and court fees the can not afford to pay. So does that mean that (according to those people) if I make less than a certain amount of money I should be exempt from paying traffic tickets and fines for petty offenses? I mean, if you don’t go to jail for it, there’s really no real consequence. You’d probably go on some sort of probation, but what does it matter if you violate it? ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/4 "2014-12-06T19:20:57Z")
No one is looking for exemption; there are other punishments besides being imprisoned for failure to pay a fine. ---
**Author:** ![justmeetee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@justmeetee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justmeetee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/5 "2014-12-06T20:19:47Z")
Well then what does not wanting a new jail built have to do with not paying a fine? The current jail is a shithole. Was when I was in it for having a few joints in my pocket in 1976. I can only imagine how bad it must be 41 years later. Even if you stop incarcerating the poor for not paying the fines imposed for endangering our children by driving 60 MPH passed the school at 3:15 or running a redlight on the cross street you’re passing through on your way home from work, the people that are in there need to be housed safely. And as stated before, there must be some form of punishment for those that choose to disregard the basic rules of society. If not jail or fines then what? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/6 "2014-12-06T20:58:30Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > No one is looking for exemption; there are other punishments besides being imprisoned for failure to pay a fine. …such as? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/7 "2014-12-06T20:59:47Z")
> [@justmeetee](#): > > The current jail is a shithole. Was when I was in it for having a few joints in my pocket in 1976. I can only imagine how bad it must be 41 years later. (blinks) (consults calendar for current year) (considers asking who wins the next two World Series) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/8 "2014-12-06T21:04:28Z")
The people protesting the new jail want to get rid of prison as a punishment for crimes. Here’s a blog by the group: > **[About us](https://nodanecountyjail.wordpress.com/about/)** > > This page has a description of the no dane county jail working group, our goals for the work, and our manifesto. The manifesto has our political philosophy and reasons for working against the propo… > [@](#): > > As prison abolitionists, we seek more than just the end to jails and prisons. The organization Critical Resistance defines prison abolition as “a political vision with the goal of eliminating imprisonment, policing, and surveillance and creating lasting alternatives to punishment and imprisonment.” In other words, prison abolition advocates for the end of the prison industrial complex (PIC), a term that describes “the overlapping interests of government and industry that use surveillance, policing, and imprisonment as solutions to economic, social and political problems.” They don’t go into detail about what they want in its place. Historically, the major alternatives to incarceration have been corporal punishment, exile, or slavery, but I’d be surprised if that’s what they’re going for. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/9 "2014-12-06T21:14:05Z")
In other words, they’re a bunch of whiny liberals who like to protest what they erroneously deem “inhumane” but are so facile they can’t propose any reasonable alternatives to the problem. This is exactly like the whiny immigration protesters. “The system is broken! The system is broken!” “(But we can’t define why exactly it’s broken nor propose any alternatives)” FOR THE RECORD: the PIC is a monstrosity. So propose reasonable reforms and people will take you seriously. Stupid whiny people do their cause a disservice on so many issues. ---
**Author:** ![justmeetee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@justmeetee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justmeetee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/10 "2014-12-06T22:00:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > (blinks) > > (consults calendar for current year) > > (considers asking who wins the next two World Series) Got me. Thinking of how long ago I finshed high school. Easily called to mind. And don’t pay attention to baseball so couldn’t help you there. In fact I couldn’t tell you who won THIS year. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/11 "2014-12-06T22:11:04Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So does that mean that (according to those people) if I make less than a certain amount of money I should be exempt from paying traffic tickets and fines for petty offenses? I mean, if you don’t go to jail for it, there’s really no real consequence. You’d probably go on some sort of probation, but what does it matter if you violate it? There are programs in place for poor people with terrible driving records to get their licenses back. It includes fine forgiveness, exempting them from insurance requirements, and expediting point removal from their driving records. It’s horseshit. To qualify one must fall into certain economic factors. If you’re not dirt poor the system basically says “eat shit! You fucked up your driving record now suffer the consequences.” I looked at the program and was horrified at what kind of people got their driving privileges back and what kind of records they had. The idea of the program is, without the ability to legally drive poor people will remain poor. The truth is, many of those people are poor in the first place because of bad decisions, including the decision to commit numerous traffic violations. > [@justmeetee](#): > > I see the news reports of the protests around the county sparked by grand juries not charging police officers. The protesters in Madison Wi. are asking that a new jail NOT be built and those committing “crimes of poverty” not be imprisoned. The way I’m understanding this is they are saying a poor person should be allowed to take whatever they wish and not be prosecuted. I’ve lived in Wisconsin for going on 55 years. Best advice is, don’t take anything anyone from Madtown says seriously. They’re all fuggin nuts! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/12 "2014-12-06T22:31:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …such as? I read somewhere that you guys throw people in jail for failure to be able to pay such things as child support and alimony. After for instance having lost their job. Seems like a pretty stupid idea on the whole. How is putting someone in jail going to help him pay child support and alimony? “Such as” could be to stop demanding people pay what they cannot do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/13 "2014-12-11T16:22:10Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I read somewhere that you guys throw people in jail for failure to be able to pay such things as child support and alimony. After for instance having lost their job. Seems like a pretty stupid idea on the whole. How is putting someone in jail going to help him pay child support and alimony? “Such as” could be to stop demanding people pay what they cannot do. Sometimes putting people in jail causes them to discover they are not quite as broke as they claim. > [@](#): > > Dwayne Ferebee, 36, father of four, has been sent to jail four times over the past 12 years on civil contempt charges for failure to pay his court-ordered child support. The first two times, he spent a couple months behind bars until his mom came up with the $3,000 the judge told him he had to pay. The third go-around, he stayed in jail six of the maximum 12-month sentence before he could scrape together the money. The fourth, he had to wait until his fiancée received her tax refund. All told, he spent about a year locked up. [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/26/locking-up-parents-for-not-paying-child-support-can-be-a-modern-day-debtors-prison/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/14 "2014-12-11T16:28:34Z")
[Today’s Editorial by George Will](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-eric-garner-criminalized-to-death/2014/12/10/9ac70090-7fd4-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html) is, I think, very much on point. And I think even many of his detractors on the left will agree with the overall sentiment expressed there. > [@](#): > > **Eric Garner, Criminalized to Death** > > Garner died at the dangerous intersection of something wise, known as “broken windows” policing, and something worse than foolish: decades of overcriminalization. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/15 "2014-12-11T16:42:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sometimes putting people in jail causes them to discover they are not quite as broke as they claim. > [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/26/locking-up-parents-for-not-paying-child-support-can-be-a-modern-day-debtors-prison/). That quote does not support your claim. To the extent that child support payments are at all ethical, they apply only to Dwayne Ferebee’s earnings. Putting Dwayne in prison as a means of forcing his mother and his fiancee to pay child support to Dwayne’s ex is not, as you seem to believe, how it should work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/16 "2014-12-11T16:58:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That quote does not support your claim. Actually it does - every time Mr. Ferebee finds himself in the pokey, sooner or later he manages to scrape together the money to pay his child support. > [@](#): > > To the extent that child support payments are at all ethical, they apply only to Dwayne Ferebee’s earnings. The notion that child support might not be ethical may be the basis for our disagreement. If you create a child, you are morally obligated to support that child. And I care very little to hear excuses. If you have to beg or borrow - I am not prepared to go so far as say “steal”, but I am pretty close - then you do that. > [@](#): > > Putting Dwayne in prison as a means of forcing his mother and his fiancee to pay child support to Dwayne’s ex is not, as you seem to believe, how it should work. I disagree. “How it should work” is that he comes up with the money to support the children he created, and if he has to get that from his mommy or his latest girlfriend that matters not at all. Any funds to which he has, or can get, legal access, then he is morally obligated (and should be legally obliged) to pay his child support. If he wants to call himself a man, then he takes care of his own. If you won’t take care of your own, then don’t bother me with excuses because I am not listening. Support the children you created. **Period.** Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/17 "2014-12-11T17:00:24Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So does that mean that (according to those people) if I make less than a certain amount of money I should be exempt from paying traffic tickets and fines for petty offenses? I mean, if you don’t go to jail for it, there’s really no real consequence. You’d probably go on some sort of probation, but what does it matter if you violate it? As I understand it, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in 1982 that the government can’t send someone to jail simply because they can’t afford to pay a fine. What’s even more stupid about throwing debtors in jail is that many jails are also charging inmates for the cost of being imprisoned. So because someone doesn’t pay a parking ticket, they get thrown in jail. Then they could be charged a couple hundred bucks for the priviledge of being in the hoosegow. Then they get out, and they can’t pay the money for being fed while in jail – leading them to be thrown in jail again. It’s absolutely idiotic that states don’t seem to be abiding by this Supreme Court decision. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/18 "2014-12-11T17:47:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As I understand it, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in 1982 that the government can’t send someone to jail simply because they can’t afford to pay a fine. AIUI the government can send you to jail for “willfully” refusing to pay a fine. Which is a bit more of a gray area - if someone can borrow the money but doesn’t, is that “willful”? One case is indicative of the problem - > [@](#): > > [James Robert Nason could be a case study for the court-debt-prison cycle. > > In 1999, when he was 18, he pleaded guilty to second-degree burglary in Spokane, Wash. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail, community service, and ordered to pay $735 in court costs, attorney fees and restitution. That debt began to accrue 12 percent annual interest from the day of his sentencing. > > Nason didn’t finish the community service, and didn’t keep up with the payments. As a result he served more than 120 days behind bars over several years, despite arguing that he couldn’t afford to pay. At one hearing, he said he was both homeless and unemployed]([Sentenced to debt: Some tossed in prison over unpaid fines](http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/sentenced-debt-some-tossed-prison-over-unpaid-fines-v18380470)). Not only did he not pay his fine, he also did not complete his community service. Or pay his restitution. One might expect that, even if he were broke and unemployed, he could do his community service. But he didn’t, which could indicate that he was refusing to do even what he could do towards repaying his debt to society and the person he robbed. It is rather like sending someone back to jail for not following up with his parole officer. There is always talk of non-prison sentences for non-violent crimes, and it often makes a lot of sense. But if convicts are going to be allowed to ignore all the non-prison parts of their sentences, that starts to not make as much sense. If the courts are sentencing me to do something that I don’t have to do, how is that different from not sentencing me at all? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/19 "2014-12-11T17:53:30Z")
So let’s take a clear-cut case: if someone is indigent and totally broke, do you or do you not want them to be sent to jail for failure to pay a fine that they literally have no money to pay? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513/20 "2014-12-11T17:54:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I disagree. “How it should work” is that he comes up with the money to support the children he created, and if he has to get that from his mommy or his latest girlfriend that matters not at all. Any funds to which he has, or can get, legal access, then he is morally obligated (and should be legally obliged) to pay his child support. Ridiculous. He didn’t have “legal access” to his mom’s money or his girlfriend’s tax refund. Basically the state exthorted the money from them. There is no reason to assume they would have given up that money if he wasn’t being held for ransom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-this-variation-of-the-recent-protests/706513.md?page=2)