# Help me understand...why are people calling it a 'Muslim ban'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701 "2017-01-31T21:40:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/61 "2017-02-01T16:10:31Z")
So, after reading responses in this thread and elsewhere I have to say I’m a bit embarrassed. I didn’t realize that Trump et al and their supporters were denying it’s a ‘ban’, and I can see why several posters in this thread were suspicious of my OP and figured me for a Trump person since I was asking the question. :o I looked at Whack-a-Mole’s cutting post “Or, maybe, 90,000 but who’s counting?”, and while I think that figure is over inflated, it’s still shocking…I had no idea we were talking about this scale. I thought it was a few hundred people, maybe a few thousand…I didn’t realize that such numbers came into the US from those countries every day. :(:smack: Also, I looked more into what several posters were saying about Giuliani’s comment seemingly confirming that Trump was looking for a legal method to block Muslim’s that wouldn’t run afoul of our legal system, and while I’m a bit skeptical I’m convinced there is enough there to say that’s probably what happened. I, again, was unaware of this aspect, so appreciate having my nose rubbed in it…sometimes that’s the only way to learn. In short, you all HAVE helped me understand why people are calling it a ‘Muslim ban’. I’m convinced…it is a Muslim ban, no quotes. It’s not a full ban on Muslim’s, true, but it’s obviously targeted against Muslim’s (I always knew that) and it is affecting far more people than I realized, thus is a bigger deal than I thought it was. I still think my concerns about illegals are valid, and it’s the aspect that I’m most worried about for personal reasons, but it doesn’t diminish what’s going on here. I always thought that this was a travesty…now I can see it’s a greater one than I thought. Appreciate the responses. As Obama said, elections have consequences. I hope we can survive the consequences of this clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/62 "2017-02-01T16:17:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I, again, was unaware of this aspect, so appreciate having my nose rubbed in it…sometimes that’s the only way to learn. I have learned some valuable lessons in life nose-first myself. Sometimes it’s the only way to get information to the brain.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/63 "2017-02-01T16:43:12Z")
**XT** props to you. I form better reasoned opinions from what I gather here. That’s why I ask things on here. It’s cool to see a mind opened. I wish it wasn’t as snarky here sometimes but it’s still better than 99% of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/64 "2017-02-01T16:48:13Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > It doesn’t take a more convoluted theory that this must just be about business interests… It does if you are a frustrated Democrat who will point to anything Trump does and try to spin it negatively - no matter what. > [@Hamlet](#): > > He could have picked…He could have included Saudi Arabia, deleted Libya,…He was not bound by any list… he wanted to try and pretend… Coulda, shoulda woulda… Riiiiight. :rolleyes: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you think a court would interpret this as a “Muslim Ban”? Depends on the court’s political leanings. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > He fired the AG within hours… Because she clearly is/was an isubordinate political hack. You’d have fired her as well, under similar circumstances. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But the AG will appeal as far as possible. She’s not the AG, BTW. Good luck to her - she’ll need it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/65 "2017-02-01T17:37:52Z")
From the EO: “prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality.” What constitutes a “minority religion” here? Shia in a Sunni country? Or do only Christians qualify? And for someone that Trump considered completely ineffectual in dealing with “radical Islamic terrorism”, Obama and his list of nations has certainly achieved near scriptural level of respect among the supporters of the ban. When did Obama become correct and unquestionable in the fight against “radical Islamic terrorism”? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/66 "2017-02-01T17:41:49Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Coulda, shoulda woulda… Riiiiight. :rolleyes: I’m curious. Do you actually think your making a coherent point by snipping y and others’ posts apart and just kinda … rambling, like that? In your head, are you thinking to yourself “Kudos UberArchetype. Although I offered absolutely nothing of substance, I sure showed them fancy liberals!” ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/67 "2017-02-01T17:55:51Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > 1. Trump had nothing to do with the selection of the countries included under 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12). 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12) is specifically about foreigners who would not otherwise require a visa to visit the U.S. (most Europeans, for example) but who had traveled to Iraq, Syria, etc., since 2011. (“You, a citizen and resident of France, have chosen to muck around in Syria in the last few years–we’d kind of like to know what you’ve been doing in that war zone before we’ll let you muck around in OUR country, so we’re going to make you go through the visa vetting process even though other French citizens don’t have to.”) A European who chose to travel to Sudan or Iraq and then wants to travel to the U.S. presents a entirely different set of risks than somebody who was born in Iraq, who has never lived anywhere besides Iraq, and who has ALREADY gone through the visa vetting process, but Trump (or whoever wrote the order on his behalf) deliberately chose to equate them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/68 "2017-02-01T22:23:08Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > From the EO: > “prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality.” > > What constitutes a “minority religion” here? Shia in a Sunni country? Or do only Christians qualify? Short answer, only Christians. Shia, Sunni, Trump doesn’t understand the distinction (or Bannon, for that matter). They’re all nasty, evil, anti-American Muslims to that ilk. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/69 "2017-02-02T03:26:50Z")
Just ran across this, found it interesting/depressing. Canadian university trying to poach grad students. [http://bit.ly/2ksEF4B](http://bit.ly/2ksEF4B) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/70 "2017-02-02T03:50:22Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Just ran across this, found it interesting/depressing. Canadian university trying to poach grad students. > > [http://bit.ly/2ksEF4B](http://bit.ly/2ksEF4B) Actually, that is quite a clever maneuver on two fronts at once (though I agree it’s a depressing prospect for those of us who care about the state of US higher ed and scientific research): > [@](#): > > Call for US students and postdocs from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Libya and Sudan > > If you are a student or a postdoc > > 1. Admitted or studying at a major US graduate school > > 2. Working in the field of scientific computing/computational science and > engineering with interest in numerical optimization, partial differential > equations or machine learning […] > > We have a vigorous program in Computational Geoscience partnering > with industrial collaborators. Translation: _“Hey, since you’re going to be shunned and persecuted in your country of residence whose leaders are also trying to discredit and shut down climate science research, why not come up north and work with us instead?”_ Triply clever, because if these students/researchers have passed the existing DHS screenings for admission to study or work at a major US university, then they’ve already been very thoroughly security-vetted. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/71 "2017-02-02T04:00:55Z")
I wuldn’t call it trying to poach students so much as offering them a viable alternative to the newly-hateful climate that Trumpistas and their bigoted leader have fostered in the US. And we have only ourselves to blame for letting it come to this. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/72 "2017-02-02T04:32:09Z")
From Wiki: “In February 1933 while on a visit to the United States, Einstein knew he could not return to Germany with the rise to power of the Nazis under Germany’s new chancellor, Adolf Hitler.” A big part of America’s success is built on refugees and immigrants like Einstein. Even for immigrants and students who are not from Trump’s currently banned 7 countries what will be the impact as they rethink the uncertain atmosphere that has been created? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/73 "2017-02-02T05:34:15Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > This [chart](https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+ban&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9297bru3RAhVY8mMKHccyCXoQ_AUICygE&biw=1104&bih=897#tbm=isch&q=muslim+ban+chart&imgrc=Wov7nJBVlHGkMM%3A)may be helpful. It’s as Snarky\_Kong said: it’s a combination of banning muslims but only those from countries where he has no business interest. So he’s a corrupt bigot, not just a bigot. Note, I am not a fan of Trump or this EO. However that link is exceedingly stupid. Let’s review the stupidity: Not in the ban Saudia Arabia: Not at war. Rich. Good place to open a luxury hotel or otherwise take money from rich people. UAE: Not at war. See above Egypt: Fighting terrorists so sorta iffy but not a disaster. Lebanon: Not at war but not in particularly good shape as far as I understand. In the ban Libya (which as misspelled on the chart): A [fucking](https://www.ft.com/content/c9e10a28-def6-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6)[disaster](https://www.libyaobserver.ly/news/al-ghasri-war-southern-libya-looming-if-political-stalemate-isn%E2%80%99t-resolved) Syria: Another fucking disaster Iraq: See above with the caveat Bush Iran: The whole ‘Great Satan’ thing. Doubt Trump could do business there if he wanted to do so. Yemen: Civil war disaster Somalia: Been a disaster for a while. Will likely continue to be a disaster. The only thing good to come out of this country in the recent past was Captain Phillips. On the bright side, Somalia dropped to #2 on the ‘Fragile state’ index. Yay Somalia! Sudan: Dafur. Nothing like a few chemical weapons attacks to control your population. Once again, a fucking disaster. Would you open a luxury hotel in Sudan? Libya? Syria? Somalia? Do business there? I suspect that if you look at other folks who do business in the region, their list of countries that they do business in would match Trumps list. Why? Because most people don’t want to do business in countries that are fucking disasters. Also, it would be interesting to find out when Trump started doing business in Egypt. I suspect is began a while ago, like before he ran for Prez. Slee ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/74 "2017-02-03T12:57:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you think a court would interpret this as a “Muslim Ban”? > > You and I know it is (or it’s as close as Trump thought he could get to one right now), but wouldn’t a court say the president has broad authority in this area and can designate countries for such action at his discretion? You’ve made this statement a couple of times… do you really mean to go that far: Ban Muslims just because they are Muslims?\* I assume that there are some that are willing to fully assimilate and not push Sharia law, etc…they would be acceptable…no? - whether Trump actually said something like that doesn’t count. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/75 "2017-02-03T13:09:47Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I assume that there are some that are willing to fully assimilate and not push Sharia law, etc…they would be acceptable…no? What does “fully assimilate” mean? Let me guess…step 1: abandon one’s religion if it happens to be _that_ religion; step 2: stop looking like _those_ people. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/76 "2017-02-03T13:56:42Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Step 1. “I, Donald J. Trump, am calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on.” > > Step 2. Per Rudy Giuliani in the link above, Trump put together a team to tell him how he could institute a Muslim ban legally. They basically came up with this EO. > > Step 3. “This isn’t a Muslim ban.” \ How the hell has this thread gone on for more than 50 posts beyond that? This is as clear of a /thread as you can get. If this was in General Questions, you could say, “question answered, locking thread”. > [@UberArchetype](#): > > It does if you are a frustrated Democrat who will point to anything Trump does and try to spin it negatively - no matter what. Honestly, spin isn’t required. All we have to do is quote what you guys say, and that’s enough. It’s like Ken Ham complaining about the media lying by quoting him directly. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/77 "2017-02-03T14:22:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Socialist. > > Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Trade Unionist. > > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Jew. > > Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me." > > -Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis’ rise to power There’s another version. You could call it the craven version or the sage version depending on outlook. (And many Germans survived by following it to the letter). > [@](#): > > "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Socialist. > > Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Trade Unionist. > > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Jew. > > They didn’t come for me— > Because I did not speak out." ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/78 "2017-02-03T15:47:03Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > There’s another version. You could call it the craven version or the sage version depending on outlook. (And many Germans survived by following it to the letter). I remember that in the classic documentary of WWII “The World at War” One very telling part of the general mentality of the Germans was shown when a German woman testified to the documentary makers, she reported that she began to hate Hitler only when the war came to them in German proper. But it was not hatred against the regime. It was like the hatred one has among gangsters when they cross each other. Because Hitler promised them that they would win half of the world so he asked them to help him by supporting him; and now they had nothing, just their clothes. Of course, the Germans that were like that in WWII were the “sage” ones. I don’t expect any army to invade us, but I do think that other bone headed things that autocrats and dictators typically do will undermine the American economy. Just as it took place in Nazi Germany. (Germany was recovering economically right when the Nazis were taking power and some got the wrong lesson from that that the fascist state was good and efficient. [Not really](http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/nazi-germany-and-the-economic-miracle/)) one big lesson from those days is that science is an even more international effort than it was in those days and the ethnic cleansing that was attempted by Hitler ended sending the best and brightest to other nations that will eventually eat their lunch. And so, “winter is here”. > **[Trump’s travel ban is already stopping scientific collaboration](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2119910-trumps-travel-ban-is-already-stopping-scientific-collaboration/)** > > Scientists inside and outside the US have had their plans disrupted by Donald Trump’s travel restrictions, and some fear it could lead to a brain drain ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/79 "2017-02-03T16:22:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > … This issue everyone is worked up about is affecting a few hundred or maybe a few thousand. To me, it’s all a trick, a slight of hand to distract the public and the press, give them something to get riled about, and wear them down for worse things to come… According to the Department of Homeland Security, 940 people have been denied boarding from the issuance of the executive order on Friday through Feb. 1. This number does not include people aboard aircraft when the order was issued who were detained or deported, nor does it include ticket holders who didn’t attempt to board. Assuming that the last week in January is about like any other week, the “a few hundred or maybe a few thousand” is a severe underestimate. “Many tens of thousands” would have been a better guess. _And this doesn’t include green card holders who are now afraid to risk overseas travel._ But I agree that this is all a distraction to wear down the public for worse things to come. By strenuously attacking the very ideals of liberty that have guided America for centuries, the more substantial agenda may pass almost unnoticed. The disintegration of regulation is already well underway; and Trump favorites will be stealing billions of dollars as fast as they can. … And one of the Trump spokescreatures, or Donald itself, has specifically mentioned something about an exemption for Christians. (Soil your own Google tab if you need a cite for that.) ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701/80 "2017-02-03T17:07:10Z")
Breaking: [**Government reveals over 100,000 visas revoked due to travel ban**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/government-reveals-over-100000-visas-revoked-due-to-travel-ban/2017/02/03/7d529eec-ea2c-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?utm_term=.b506ace3cb04) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-why-are-people-calling-it-a-muslim-ban/778701.md?page=5)