# Help me with a historical murder mystery (warning - gruesome!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458 "2003-10-03T22:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/21 "2003-10-06T08:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > I think at 10-12, the kids would think it’s really cool-but it would be way out of their league. > > Maybe the Princes in the Tower? Is that too much? I think I’ll need a quicker cause of death, so I can use my blowflies to deduce the time of the murder. But there could be room in the story to have a forgotten relative locked up in a Priest’s Hole… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/22 "2003-10-06T08:01:01Z")
It would probably be best to use as obscure a poison as possible - for example, if you use foxgloves (which are deadly poisonous and rather common), there’s a slight possibility that some kid might end up trying it out on the family pets (or worse), whereas if you use mandrake or henbane, it remains an abstract concept. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/23 "2003-10-06T08:01:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raygirvan \* > **Glee** , does your school have any of the Terry Deary “Horrible Histories” series from Scholastic? Those are children’s books, National Curriculum approved, so would give you some sort of baseline for what’d be acceptable, as well as various nasty historical events for inspiration. There is one - “Dark Knights and Dingy Castles” - covering the era you want. We’ve definitely got that series - thanks for the tip! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/24 "2003-10-06T08:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > It would probably be best to use as obscure a poison as possible - for example, if you use foxgloves (which are deadly poisonous and rather common), there’s a slight possibility that some kid might end up trying it out on the family pets (or worse), whereas if you use mandrake or henbane, it remains an abstract concept. Absolutely. I’m currently thinking of using just a sedative so my ‘victim’ can be horribly murdered (but not **too** horribly!) without crying out. Have you got a suggestion for a medieval ‘sedative’? (preferably one that can be ‘detected’!) ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/25 "2003-10-06T10:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*When it came to estates, if there was no male heir the wealth/title sometimes went to the nearest male relative, skipping over daughters entirely. > > Very few women achieved the status of femme sole.\*\* Not quite true. Apart from a handful of very peculiar exceptions, titles invariably went to the heir male of the body. If there were no surviving sons, this would be the closest male relative in the male line. The rules for land and other forms of wealth were rather different. If there were no surviving sons, the land etc. usually went the daughters. The difference was that, whereas the estates would have passed in their entirety to the eldest son, they were divided equally between all the daughters. This was why there were heiresses and co-heiresses. Inheritance made no difference to whether a woman was a feme sole or a feme covert and whether a woman was a feme sole or a feme covert made no difference to her inheritance rights, with the crucial caveat that any land inherited by a feme covert passed to her husband. This does mean that daughters with only one brother would have a motive to bump him off… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/26 "2003-10-06T10:57:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Absolutely. > I’m currently thinking of using just a sedative so my ‘victim’ can be horribly murdered (but not **too** horribly!) without crying out. > > Have you got a suggestion for a medieval ‘sedative’? (preferably one that can be ‘detected’!) \*\* They did actually have opium; perhaps if this was inexpertly administered, a spot or two of sticky residue could remain on the victim’s collar. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/27 "2003-10-06T12:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APB \* > Not quite true. Apart from a handful of very peculiar exceptions, titles invariably went to the heir male of the body. If there were no surviving sons, this would be the closest male relative in the male line. OK, so if I want the title, I need to be the male heir. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APB \* > The rules for land and other forms of wealth were rather different. If there were no surviving sons, the land etc. usually went the daughters. The difference was that, whereas the estates would have passed in their entirety to the eldest son, they were divided equally between all the daughters. This was why there were heiresses and co-heiresses. > > Inheritance made no difference to whether a woman was a feme sole or a feme covert and whether a woman was a feme sole or a feme covert made no difference to her inheritance rights, with the crucial caveat that any land inherited by a feme covert passed to her husband. > > This does mean that daughters with only one brother would have a motive to bump him off… OK, so kill all male heirs to get a share. And if you then kill all the other female hiers, you get the lot. Thanks, I can make a motive out of that! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/28 "2003-10-06T13:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > They did actually have opium; perhaps if this was inexpertly administered, a spot or two of sticky residue could remain on the victim’s collar. Thanks. Sorry to be dense, but I’m not a criminal! How do I administer opium? If the body is not discovered for a few days, how could a detective prove opium had been administered? And how would the villain have got some (I am going to include an apothecary, so that could be a route). ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/29 "2003-10-06T14:23:41Z")
I couldn’t see an answer in the thread, so going back to question 3, from looking at a stab wound an investigator can get an idea of the type of weapon used (single edged blades leave a teardrop shape), the angle the wound was inflicted from, whether it was a slash or a stab and sometimes the size of the blade. If rats have got to the body, it will be harder to tell these things by looking. I can’t remember off the top of my head whether corpses don’t bleed. I know that blood can pool in the body after death, leaving marks like bruises if the body has been lying a while. Its been a while since I looked into this, so I hope someone can put me right on the details. As for poisons, Arsenic was available in the time period you want, (treatise on its manufacture written in the 1250’s). Belladonna was available and used in Italy as a cosmetic aid, which might point to a female murderer if that’s what you are after. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/30 "2003-10-06T14:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tirial \* > I couldn’t see an answer in the thread, so going back to question 3, from looking at a stab wound an investigator can get an idea of the type of weapon used (single edged blades leave a teardrop shape), the angle the wound was inflicted from, whether it was a slash or a stab and sometimes the size of the blade. If rats have got to the body, it will be harder to tell these things by looking. Thanks. Yes, that’s exactly what I wanted. So a medieval weapon-master could suggest from a wound that: - a blade was double sided (rather than single) - was a downward thrust (murderer taller than victim) - was a dagger (rather than a sword) I’m keeping rats out of it - I shall use blowflies or similar. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tirial \* > I can’t remember off the top of my head whether corpses don’t bleed. I know that blood can pool in the body after death, leaving marks like bruises if the body has been lying a while. Its been a while since I looked into this, so I hope someone can put me right on the details. My idea was that a wound wouldn’t bleed much if inflicted after death, because the heart has stopped pumping. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tirial \* > As for poisons, Arsenic was available in the time period you want, (treatise on its manufacture written in the 1250’s). Belladonna was available and used in Italy as a cosmetic aid, which might point to a female murderer if that’s what you are after. Well I will either use a sedative (if the red hot poker is not considered too gruesome), or a poison. (Yes, the poisoner is female.) But I did want the investigators to discover the ‘sustance abuse’, and I seem to recall that aresenic is tasteless, soluble etc. Give me a suspicious stain, or an odour! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/31 "2003-10-06T14:58:02Z")
Isn’t arsenic pretty slow, though? You need to let it accumulate. Arsenic (or other heavy metals) are also interesting in that the evidence never goes away: Any organic poison will eventually break down, but an element won’t. I don’t think that they had the techniques to detect this in the middle ages, but you might put in a footnote with a modern historian exhuming the remains and confirming/reversing the verdict. As for blood, once blood pools, if you stab any part that isn’t where it’s pooling, it won’t bleed. But by that time, it’s generally pretty obvious that the victim is dead. Since you want your second murderer to be mistaken as to the baron’s vital state, it’ll have to be soon enough after that there’ll be blood. I don’t know exactly how long this takes. And I personally wouldn’t worry about the gruesomeness: At worst, it’ll do wonders for holding your students’ attention. To be on the safe side, though, you may want to tell the students and/or parents in advance when particularly gory bits are coming (without going into specifics, of course!), so sensitive students can wait out in the hall. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/32 "2003-10-06T15:07:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > Isn’t arsenic pretty slow, though? You need to let it accumulate. Arsenic (or other heavy metals) are also interesting in that the evidence never goes away: Any organic poison will eventually break down, but an element won’t. I don’t think that they had the techniques to detect this in the middle ages, but you might put in a footnote with a modern historian exhuming the remains and confirming/reversing the verdict. Yes, I must decide whether any poisoning was acute or chronic (so to speak). I like your idea of using a modern historian, too. Thanks! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > As for blood, once blood pools, if you stab any part that isn’t where it’s pooling, it won’t bleed. But by that time, it’s generally pretty obvious that the victim is dead. Since you want your second murderer to be mistaken as to the baron’s vital state, it’ll have to be soon enough after that there’ll be blood. I don’t know exactly how long this takes. I think my second murderer is going to be impulsive. Seeing the Baron ‘asleep’, perhaps in a dim light, he stabs once in the heart and leaves hurriedly. Bother! If the Baron is already dead, and therefore presumably lying down, how can I use Tirial’s clever idea of a downward thrust giving the investigators the idea of a tall killer? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > And I personally wouldn’t worry about the gruesomeness: At worst, it’ll do wonders for holding your students’ attention. To be on the safe side, though, you may want to tell the students and/or parents in advance when particularly gory bits are coming (without going into specifics, of course!), so sensitive students can wait out in the hall. I appreciate the advice about not upsetting the children. I will check with various people before including anything, but it is possible that children excluded from the red hot poker news will have a burning desire (sorry!) to learn what they missed… ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/33 "2003-10-06T15:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Bother! If the Baron is already dead, and therefore presumably lying down, how can I use Tirial’s clever idea of a downward thrust giving the investigators the idea of a tall killer? \*\* Have the killer seat the baron’s body at his desk as if he were working. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/34 "2003-10-06T16:16:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*But I did want the investigators to discover the ‘sustance abuse’, and I seem to recall that aresenic is tasteless, soluble etc. > Give me a suspicious stain, or an odour! \*\* Both cyanide (smells and tastes like almond) and strychnine (bitter tasting) were used in the Middle Ages. Deadly Nightshade is sweet. Both Hellebore and Aconite were used as poisons, and they both taste bitter, but they’re only mildly bitter. Hemlock is strongly bitter. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/35 "2003-10-06T16:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gyrate \* > \*\*If you want medieval, you might want to check out Ellis Peters’ [Brother Cadfael](http://www.wellscs.com/ann/reading/cadfael.htm) books – murder mysteries set in Shrewsbury, England in the 12th century. There ought to be something in there you could use. \*\* For obvious reasons, I highly recommend this series… ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/36 "2003-10-06T17:18:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it possible that a noble would write personal confessions to a priest? (i.e. sending them by hand to a nearby monastery) It would be unusual, because one would normally confess in person, and in any case most noble households would have their own private chaplain. It’s possible that a noble might write a confidential letter to another priest who was a personal friend, of course. This sounds like great fun, by the way. I wish they did that sort of thing when I was in school! ---
**Author:** ![Level3Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Level3Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Level3Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/37 "2003-10-06T19:50:50Z")
Arsenic has a galic odor, an item a doctor performaing a suspected poisoning will note. A few other results from common poisons can be found here: [http://www.ualr.edu/~dllauferswei/ci/homintro.pdf](http://www.ualr.edu/~dllauferswei/ci/homintro.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/38 "2003-10-06T20:28:46Z")
Have you given any thought of alcohol being the sedative or a vehicle for it? Way more wine than water was drank (drunk?) in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, the water not being reliably potable. The daughter could slip something in his drink, and under the guise of helping her sloppily drunk brother/husband from the table, take him off somewhere and finish the deed with a final, fatal overdose. Maybe the Baron could be well-known for his over the top drinking habits, and it wouldn’t be at all uncommon for him to drink himself into a stupor in the great hall. The murderers could take advantage of that. There’s always poison in the ear too, like Hamlet Sr., though you probably don’t want to have ghosts be a major clue! 🙂 Sarah ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/39 "2003-10-07T04:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > **It would be unusual, because one would normally confess in person, and in any case most noble households would have their own private chaplain. It’s possible that a noble might write a confidential letter to another priest who was a personal friend, of course.** IIRC, Mary Stuart (Queen of Scots) wrote out her last confession because she was forbidden personal access to a priest. ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458/40 "2003-10-07T14:29:14Z")
There’s a bit more on stab wounds and bleeding, from this site: [http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/425/425lect12.htm](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/425/425lect12.htm) Quote: “the general rule is that a pre-mortem wound gapes and bleeds profusely while a postmortem wound does not.” The link doesn’t have detailed images (that I saw), but it is on forensic pathology so the content may be disturbing. If it is a single stab to the heart, suggesting a taller killer could be difficult. If the body was stabbed while it was lying down the killer’s arm can swing in a downward arc, which might suggest it. Aconitine (from wolf’s bane/monkshood) wasn’t easily detectable, although the french called it “inheritance powder” so a stray mention in a letter might be a clue. Hope this helps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-historical-murder-mystery-warning-gruesome/205458.md?page=3)