# Help me with a vaccination question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 13, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702 "2014-01-13T20:37:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/21 "2014-01-13T23:28:24Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Does the polio virus infect only people? No, other species are infected by it as well, notwithstanding assertions to the contrary earlier in this thread. As Jane Goodall achingly described, chimpanzees get polio, and with the same consequences as in humans. The best cite I can find with a quick search is from [the Wiki page on the Goodall chimpanzees](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#F-family). ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/22 "2014-01-13T23:47:41Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > No, other species are infected by it as well, notwithstanding assertions to the contrary earlier in this thread. That’s kind of interesting. If true, those chimpanzees are the only non-humans I’ve ever read to have naturally contracted polio. All other known monkeys/apes with polio I’ve ever heard about were deliberately infected by researchers. Was it ever confirmed this was poliovirus and not a similar chimpanzee-specific disease or variant? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/23 "2014-01-14T01:12:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Can he point to any other diseases that have been eradicated as a result of natural immunity? Not eradicated, but certainly some which became very rare (I guess it’s not a dominant gene?): Polio, Mumps, Measles, Rubella, Typhoid, et cetera. Oh, I mean, sure, the drop in incidence in each of those correlates almost perfectly with vaccination, and there’s really nothing else that correlates well to any individual one other than vaccines, let alone to _all_ of them, and these “natural immunity genes” seem to only pop up in places where the vaccine exists, but don’t we all know that vaccines don’t work? I mean, the evidence is all there! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/24 "2014-01-14T01:27:44Z")
[http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/175/Supplement\_1/S286.full.pdf](http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/175/Supplement_1/S286.full.pdf) More accurately no animal resevoir. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/25 "2014-01-14T03:40:31Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Was it ever confirmed this was poliovirus and not a similar chimpanzee-specific disease or variant? That is an important question and I don’t know the answer. I did a PubMed search ([HERE](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=(polio+OR+poliomyelitis)+AND+chimpanzees) - see refs 42 to 65) and some of the older papers seem to show that chimps can be deliberately infected which, of course, is not the same as natural, in-the-wild acquisition. As well, at least [one chimp acquired it from a lab monkey in a nearby cage](http://jem.rupress.org/content/80/5/383.long). But, there seems to be very little, if anything, specifically answering your question. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/26 "2014-01-14T04:11:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Not eradicated, but certainly some which became very rare (I guess it’s not a dominant gene?): Polio, Mumps, Measles, Rubella, Typhoid, et cetera. Oh, I mean, sure, the drop in incidence in each of those correlates almost perfectly with vaccination, and there’s really nothing else that correlates well to any individual one other than vaccines, let alone to _all_ of them, and these “natural immunity genes” seem to only pop up in places where the vaccine exists, but don’t we all know that vaccines don’t work? I mean, the evidence is all there! Those drops in incidence also correlated with the proliferation of sanitation. For polio and typhoid, sanitation is directly correlated with decreased incidence. For the others, any role sanitation may have played is less clear. NOTE: I am not an anti-vaxer, but I work in the water and sanitation field. Just want to be sure that sanitation gets credit where credit it due. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/27 "2014-01-14T04:21:43Z")
See the link above, pg S289 “Humans are the only reservoir … Nonhuman primates” section. The Gombe outbreak was presumed to be polio given the likely human source in a nearby human outbreak but no lab confirmation was attempted. There have been a few other past documented cases of both wild and captive nonhuman primates With polio like illness and several with lab confirmation. Relevance to this discussion is that there was no evidence that nonhuman primates could continue to sustain infections without ongoing exposure to human sources. Once eliminated from humans, all humans vaccinated, it was considered gone from the planet. Other bugs have nonhuman reservoirs and elimination is not a reasonably possible goal. Sanitation did not improve much in much of Africa and Asia coincident with smallpox eradication; massive immunization campaigns did. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/28 "2014-01-14T04:34:11Z")
OK, so, we’ve all done the “Was Lee Harvey Oswald the lone assassin of JFK?” thing over and over again. What I want to know is–does anyone have _PROOF_ that the cause of death for President Kennedy was being shot? I mean, sure, he _was_ shot and suffered a massive head wound; and sure, he did die, like, real soon after that. But how do we KNOW he didn’t just happen to coincidentally suffer a fatal heart attack at the exact same time as LHO and/or The Vast Conspiracy were shooting at him? Or maybe Jackie _poisoned_ him! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/29 "2014-01-14T12:12:39Z")
Teach the controversy! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/30 "2014-01-14T13:33:35Z")
Going back to Smallpox, could you prove the elimination of infections was due the vaccination program by comparing the drop-off rate to the human generation cycle of ~20-25 years? Moving forward, could we eliminate rabies, despite it being cross-species? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/31 "2014-01-14T14:19:49Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > OK, so, we’ve all done the “Was Lee Harvey Oswald the lone assassin of JFK?” thing over and over again. > > What I want to know is–does anyone have _PROOF_ that the cause of death for President Kennedy was being shot? > > I mean, sure, he _was_ shot and suffered a massive head wound; and sure, he did die, like, real soon after that. But how do we KNOW he didn’t just happen to coincidentally suffer a fatal heart attack at the exact same time as LHO and/or The Vast Conspiracy were shooting at him? > > Or maybe Jackie _poisoned_ him! :eek: That’s not quite the same. The coroner’s report is public record. I am not JAQing off or anything; speaking for myself, I am quite content that smallpox was eradicated by vaccination and that a robust public immunization program is best for everyone (actually, I’d make it mandatory.) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/32 "2014-01-14T15:22:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Moving forward, could we eliminate rabies, despite it being cross-species? In theory, perhaps, but in practice, eliminating animal reservoirs is very very difficult. How many bats and mice and racoons and wolves and other mammals are out there spreading rabies amongst themselves? We’ve seen how hard it is to get just our own species to get fully vaccinated when it should be abundantly clear to all of them how valuable such a thing is - just imagine how hard it would be to vaccinate all the rest of Class Mammalia. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/33 "2014-01-14T15:42:57Z")
The problem with eliminating rabies is the same as the problems trying to eliminate malarie. Too many vectors. I’m slogging my way through a wonderful book called The Coming Plague which details the effort to eliminate smallpox and other nasty illnesses like Lasa and Ebola. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/34 "2014-01-14T16:12:18Z")
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#): > > Those drops in incidence also correlated with the proliferation of sanitation. For polio and typhoid, sanitation is directly correlated with decreased incidence. For the others, any role sanitation may have played is less clear. > > NOTE: I am not an anti-vaxer, but I work in the water and sanitation field. Just want to be sure that sanitation gets credit where credit it due. What sanitation advancement was made in the US during the mid-1950’s that eradicated polio almost overnight? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/35 "2014-01-14T16:59:42Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > What sanitation advancement was made in the US during the mid-1950’s that eradicated polio almost overnight? Fluoridation of water supplies? ::ducks and runs:: **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/36 "2014-01-14T17:07:02Z")
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#): > > Those drops in incidence also correlated with the proliferation of sanitation. For polio and typhoid, sanitation is directly correlated with decreased incidence. > [@Deeg](#): > > What sanitation advancement was made in the US during the mid-1950’s that eradicated polio almost overnight? There’s a difference between decreased incidence and eradication. It may well be that the proliferation of polio in the pre-vaccine era would have been worse yet had it not been tempered by improved sanitation. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/37 "2014-01-14T17:19:42Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > The problem with eliminating rabies is the same as the problems trying to eliminate malarie. Too many vectors. Is that really the case? Rabies was eradicated in Britain and Ireland, and largely in western Europe, mainly bat rabies remaining, per the [CDC](http://www.who.int/rabies/Absence_Presence_Rabies_07_large.jpg). It seems to me that we could push the boundary eastwards and work on the bat problem. Of course this would be a huge but not impossible undertaking, and a worthwhile one, saving 55,000 lives a year, fostering international cooperation and wildlife awareness and conservation. I’m guessing the most difficult areas would be the heavily forested jungles, but even if rabies were confined to sub-Saharan Africa and South America, it would be a huge advance. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/38 "2014-01-14T17:26:58Z")
Here’s the problem the OP faces. Give anti-vax mentality they would looks for smallpox vaccine killing smallpox virus under a microscope as the only proof that it works. Vaccines simply do not work that way and their view of how vaccines work simply do not allow them to understand herd immunity or vaccine -\> antibodies -\> killed virus chain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/39 "2014-01-14T17:33:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is that really the case? Rabies was eradicated in Britain and Ireland, and largely in western Europe, mainly bat rabies remaining, per the [CDC](http://www.who.int/rabies/Absence_Presence_Rabies_07_large.jpg). It seems to me that we could push the boundary eastwards and work on the bat problem. Rabies was eradicated in Britain and Ireland due to near-fanatical framework of quarantine regulation - and the whole “island” thing. Not possible to extrapolate beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702/40 "2014-01-14T18:42:57Z")
So it should be possible to extend that zone to other natural barriers, like the Mediterranean, the Caucasus, and the Urals. That’s a LOT of work, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-with-a-vaccination-question/678702.md?page=3)