# Help my friend-a fundie **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838 "2002-10-04T15:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/1 "2002-10-04T15:06:56Z")
A nice lady from a church I’d visited asks us over and is going to the movies with us tonight (Jonah-Veggie Tales). She is a fundie, however. By this I mean, she has told me that atheists are just atheists because they are **really** angry at God. Also, homosexuality is a sin. What should i say to her? Would you say it? Atheists-please post here and tell her why you are a non-believer in God, that its not becasue you are angry. Should i ask her for verses which say homosexuality is a sin? I’ve told her my politics are to the left, and she said they can’t be-the left beleives in rights of homosexuals and its a sin. Now, people are trying to get pedophilia accepted also! Thank you.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/2 "2002-10-04T15:47:35Z")
I don’t think she’s a nice lady at all. I think she’s an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/3 "2002-10-04T15:57:04Z")
How could I be angry at something that doesn’t exist? BTW, where does she think homosexual conservatives fall on the spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/4 "2002-10-04T16:08:25Z")
If she’s reasonably intelligent, you could try the “do you know what some people believe about fundamentalists?” tactic, and make the parallel that, just a she’s (I hope!) not out there murdering doctors day and night, plotting to take over all local governments, and in general attempting the overthrow of secular western civilization, then – quite possibly! – her views of others might also be a bit out of touch with their reality. The bottom line, I think, is that other people _aren’t_ defined by what we think of them or their views – they’re always much more complicated and interesting than we think at first. I don’t know if she’ll buy that; fundamentalism is one of the mind-sets that is based on and requires a single- (perhaps even simple-) mindedness about the world. If she _isn’t_ willing to believe that other people aren’t defined by her, drop her immediately. You don’t need a friend like that. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/5 "2002-10-04T16:14:17Z")
A few questions:[ul][_]Why are you going to the movies with her? [_]Does she have other redeeming qualities? [_]Why do these two subjects keep coming up? [_]Are you always going to be able to bite your tongue?[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Fibonacci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Fibonacci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fibonacci)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/6 "2002-10-04T16:58:11Z")
Ask her if she really believes that Jonah was an asparagus. And what about cross species sex? Jonah’s sidekick is a Middle Eastern caterpillar whose mother was a caterpillar but his father was a worm! The Ninevites sinning consists of hitting people with dead fish. Aren’t these depictions of the Bible blasphemous? ;j You didn’t mention if you were taking young children to this. It certainly doesn’t sound like something an adult would want to see unless accompanied by a very young child. Enjoy your evening, but I’d have to say there must be better ways to spend your time. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/7 "2002-10-04T18:18:16Z")
I saw the ad for that movie this morning and was wondering if it’d cover the entire story of Jonah, not just the swallowed by a whale bit. The entire book of Jonah could be a good conversation opener. After all, Jonah was outraged because God didn’t destroy the people of Ninevah (I think that’s where he was being sent). You could compare that to her views on homosexuality, atheists, etc. Keep in mind that the whole reason Jonah got swallowed by the whale was because he didn’t want to do as God had told him and associate with people he considered evil. In other words, he set his judgement above God’s. Good luck! CJ ---
**Author:** ![stargazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@stargazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stargazer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/8 "2002-10-04T20:35:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fibonacci \* > \*\* It certainly doesn’t sound like something an adult would want to see unless accompanied by a very young child. > \*\* Not so! I’m an adult and I thoroughly enjoy the VeggieTales series. They’re funny and silly and lots of fun. They’re quite the rage on many college campuses, too. Anyway, back to the OP: I wouldn’t necessarily drop her as a friend/acquaintence just yet – how do you expect to assist her in changing her views if you don’t spend time with her? Same concept Jesus had with sinners – if you shun them, you don’t have a chance at helping them change their ways. That, and you “prove” to her that “liberals aren’t good Christians” or some silly thing, and end up reinforcing her tweaked beliefs. I say lead by example, and try to talk with her about the reasons behind her beliefs. One can expose a lot of illogic that way. (I fully realize this is more easily said than done – if you can’t stand her personality, or can’t talk with her about her beliefs without wanting to strangle her, that’s different.) Best of luck! ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/9 "2002-10-05T04:03:15Z")
I wouldn’t say anything, **vanilla**. Tell me, how many conservative Christians have you met that are politically liberal? I’ve “met” one (quotes because it’s only online), and her name is **vanilla**. How many people do you know from the churches you visit who wouldn’t say that homosexual acts are sinful and that atheists are just pissed off at god? (Sorry, but after all the bad experiences I’ve had trying to discuss politics with evangelical Christians in the US who are convinced that Jesus is the ultimate Republican, I’m a bit cynical.) Ah, just enjoy the movie, and please, no spoilers. I’m waiting to see it myself! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/10 "2002-10-05T04:22:06Z")
This is as good a place as any to put this musing of mine, and even a quote for some relevance: > [@](#): > > How could I be angry at something that doesn’t exist? > > BTW, where does she think homosexual conservatives fall on the spectrum? Has anyone ever noticed conservative athiests tend to _not exist_? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MadScientistMatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@MadScientistMatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadScientistMatt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/11 "2002-10-05T04:23:58Z")
Ok, here’s a set of answers from someone who attends a Southern Baptist church. First off, if convincing her of a particular point isn’t a high priority on your list, you won’t accomplish much by bringing it up. Be realistic here about what you say, and consider what effect you’re trying to come up with and why. > [@](#): > > By this I mean, she has told me that atheists are just atheists because they are really angry at God. Well, I’ve met a few who certainly seem that way. And a lot more who are simply angry at His followers. Maybe that’s somewhat common to my age group. I presume you want to convince her they’re not all that way. You’ll need some sort of counterexamples that she can’t fit into her schema of things. One important note - does she make a distinction between atheists who are convinced that there is no God, and agnostics who simply believe that they don’t have enough evidence to prove things either way? For the agnostics, you could try to come up with a secular example of something that’s hard to prove either way, to illustrate how someone could come to that conclusion. > [@](#): > > Also, homosexuality is a sin… Should i ask her for verses which say homosexuality is a sin? One of two things could happen here. (1) She will have the exact book, chapter, and verse memorized. (2) She will have to go and look them up. Either way, you’re not likely to get anything to happen other than that she will remind you that it is mentioned as a sin, and if she’s meticulous she will list that it carried the death penalty in ancient Israel, along with zoophilia and incest. BTW, zoophilia was punishable by death for the _animal_ as well as the human. > [@](#): > > I’ve told her my politics are to the left, and she said they can’t be-the left beleives in rights of homosexuals and its a sin. Ok, lumping all left wingers together - now _that_ may be a serious problem. I suppose the best way to illustrate that would be to illustrate how neither the Left nor Right is a monolithic group by pointing out people who agree partly with some of the “party line” but disagree with it on others. I hope she doesn’t think all Southern Baptists agree with everything Jerry Falwell says! ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/12 "2002-10-05T05:01:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Has anyone ever noticed conservative athiests tend to not exist? Ya got a bunch of 'em right here on the old SDMB. P.S. Learn to spell atheist. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/13 "2002-10-05T05:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MadScientistMatt \* > \*\*Ok, here’s a set of answers from someone who attends a Southern Baptist church. > > One of two things could happen here. (1) She will have the exact book, chapter, and verse memorized. (2) She will have to go and look them up. Either way, you’re not likely to get anything to happen other than that she will remind you that it is mentioned as a sin, and if she’s meticulous she will list that it carried the death penalty in ancient Israel, along with zoophilia and incest. BTW, zoophilia was punishable by death for the _animal_ as well as the human.\*\* Well, I’m firmly against the death penalty for homosexuals, Biblical or no. > [@](#): > > Ok, lumping all left wingers together - now _that_ may be a serious problem. I suppose the best way to illustrate that would be to illustrate how neither the Left nor Right is a monolithic group by pointing out people who agree partly with some of the “party line” but disagree with it on others. I hope she doesn’t think all Southern Baptists agree with everything Jerry Falwell says! All right, show me some Southern Baptists who are openly more leftist than rightist politically (speaking of the US, generally). I know that political rightists aren’t a big monolithic group, but where are the leftist Southern Baptists? For that matter, what about the CBF? Are they really leftist, or just less rightist than mainstream Southern Baptists? Okay, bad hijack. Just had a few questions there. How was the Jonah movie, **vanilla**? Did you talk to your friend from church? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/14 "2002-10-05T07:30:09Z")
\*\*vanilla wrote: What should i say to her? Would you say it?\*\* I wouldn’t say anything to her. If she brings the topic up, change it or tell her you’d prefer to not talk about that. There’s no reason to ruin a perfectly good evening because you have a difference of opinion on biblical verses. I’m fairly certain you’ll never be able to change this person’s opinion, no matter how many facts and cites you give her. Think about **Jersey Diamond** or **Joe\_Cool**. Have either of them every changed their opinion on biblical verses? If she insists on bringing up the topic, look her straight in the eyes and sternly say “I TOLD you, I don’t want to talk about that!” Then turn and walk away. She’s not looking for friendship, she’s trying to convert you. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/15 "2002-10-05T14:14:47Z")
I don’t think I’d classify her as a friend at this point. She doesn’t seem to have enough in common with you to be a real friend. You may want to start some sort of relationship with her, but can you really picture yourself spending any quality time with someone who is so opposite of you regarding subjects you consider important in your life? That being said, if she’s just an acquaintance, you don’t need to get into heavy conversation. Now, if you want to change her mind, there are probably more effective venues than an animated feature film. Go to a public forum of some sort…or a class or seminar or something. My guess is she probably won’t want to join you in a situation like that. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/16 "2002-10-05T14:24:35Z")
If this “nice lady” brings the subject up, what you could say is, “Whom are we to judge these people?” ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/17 "2002-10-05T14:26:58Z")
As for my reason being an atheist: there isn’t sufficient evidence to show the existence of a supernatural creator, let alone the Judeo-Christianity version. ---
**Author:** ![MadScientistMatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@MadScientistMatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadScientistMatt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/18 "2002-10-05T14:41:05Z")
> [@](#): > > All right, show me some Southern Baptists who are openly more leftist than rightist politically (speaking of the US, generally). I know that political rightists aren’t a big monolithic group, but where are the leftist Southern Baptists? That’s an easy one. Bill Clinton is the most well known one that comes to mind, but if you’re in a Southern state you may wish to check the political affiliation of some of your local liberal politicians too. > [@](#): > > For that matter, what about the CBF? Are they really leftist, or just less rightist than mainstream Southern Baptists? Only leftist compared to the Southern Baptist Convention, and I’m not even completely sure about that. It seems most of the churches that joined the CBF were motivated as much by the way the Convention appeared to be trying to impose its will too much on individual churches. However, in many cases those were issues such as the ordination of women. So you could say they are further to the left than the Southern Baptist Convention. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/19 "2002-10-05T14:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackeyes \* > Has anyone ever noticed conservative athiests tend to _not exist_? 😕 Feh, _I’m_ a conservative atheist. Though I like to think of myself as a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![bluecanary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bluecanary/32/3614_2.png) [@bluecanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluecanary)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838/20 "2002-10-05T16:31:14Z")
I’d class myself as ‘a bit to the left of Libertarian’–and an atheist because I don’t feel the evidence for a metaphysical God is there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-my-friend-a-fundie/130838.md?page=2)