# Help to cancel Wizrds of the Coast's bannings for pc reasons in MtG **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 28, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601 "2020-07-28T14:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acierocolotl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acierocolotl/32/6241_2.png) [@Acierocolotl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acierocolotl)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/41 "2020-07-28T18:17:05Z")
Against my better judgement, I’m going to take you seriously for the duration of this post. I am going to urge you to look up a concept called “preponderance of the evidence.” This the hardest legal standard that must be met. The majority of the evidence must support our point. Is the card not racist? Your arguments: The text talks about all creatures, ostensibly. Village-burning may or may not be aimed at any specific nationality. Is the card racist? The card text is specific about defeating “other” colours that don’t belong to the player. #1488 KKK dudes Village burnings by KKK dudes\* Nazi-supporting painter. You say, “you want to read in it KKK burníng black viillage you can, but that is not the point.” **I can read it, and I do**. **And that is the point**. I don’t look at that card and think, “Oh, what a bunch of jolly clowns having a bonfire.” I think, “That’s a bunch of KKK-guys. What do KKK guys burn? Oh yes. Black people.” And that it’s from a guy who has also done Nazi-inspired art doesn’t mean it was an unwitting accident, it was very likely intentional. So here’s a summary, written as succinctly as I reasonably can. The card evokes KKK imagery. The KKK existed to be racist. The title and number of the card are extra evidence, and the artist’s other works back this up. If you can prove that the KKK weren’t generally racist, you may have a leg to stand on. I would love to see your research and I think we’d all find it instructional. Right now, my friend, I don’t know how you’re even upright. You are figuratively defying the laws of physics. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/42 "2020-07-28T18:17:29Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > I don’t know enough about white supremacist organization (thankfully) in the 90s to know if 88 was in use as coded Heil Hitler, so I can’t speak to that part. Yes, it was. Its use as a Neo-Nazi codeword dates back to at least the seventies. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/43 "2020-07-28T18:31:55Z")
Did some Googling and people have been calling out the “Invoke Prejudice” card pretty much since it was created. And the artist’s now-deleted website was full of not-so-subtle Nazi imagery. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/44 "2020-07-28T18:39:45Z")
> [@tavaritz](#): > > It’s not a collector’s number. It was sequential number of cards printed. And that the number 1488 just happened to be Invoke Prejudice is a coincidence. If Alpha has not missed two cards it wouldn’t be that. If beta wouldn’t have added third land card it would not have been that etc. It is a coincidence and nothing more. Absolute nonsense. Whoever was assigning art and card names for Legends already knew how many cards were printed in Alpha and Beta, and put this in as a cute little Klan Easter Egg. If there had been a slightly different number of cards printed before this, they could easily have put their racist nod a little earlier or later in the alphabet. It’s _not_ a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/45 "2020-07-28T21:24:09Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I will admit that I’m not quite sure why Jihad is ban-worth and Army of Allah isn’t, but I’m also aware that just because something doesn’t _offend me_ , that doesn’t make it inoffensive My guess is that Army of Allah just makes attacking creatures temporarily more powerful. The name just translates to “Army of God”, and there are plenty of gods in magic. The set it’s from is based on 1001 Arabian Nights, which is set in a land where the god that’s most worshipped is Allah. Nowadays Magic doesn’t use real-world settings, but there no judgment or stereotype portrayed here. It’s no more offensive than “Wrath of God”, “Gods Willing”, “Gods’ Eye, Gate to the Reikai” or “God-Eternal Kefnet”, or any number of other cards. On the contrary, Jihad is a word fraught with modern-day controversial meaning. Plus the card text itself requires you to single out a particular color as the target of your Jihad, with the bonuses to your creature lasting until that target is destroyed, evoking an actual Jihad. Wizards long ago changed the name of their card game Jyhad to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. I’m surprised it took them this long to purge the card Jihad from Magic. (Note that they also got rid of Crusade, which is basically the flip side to Jihad.) In other words, it’s not just about mentioning a real-world word from Islam. It’s about whether that word has an real-world meaning that they find inappropriate for the game. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/46 "2020-07-28T21:34:43Z")
Wait, wait, wait, wait… They’re still making the Vampire CCG? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/47 "2020-07-28T21:40:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > They’re still making the Vampire CCG? Well, someone is, anyway. WotC only published it for a couple of years, before giving it over to White Wolf. It looks like White Wolf discontinued it a number of years ago, but that it’s been revived by a company called [Black Chantry Productions](https://www.blackchantry.com/products/current-products/preconstructed-decks/product-25th-anniversary/). ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/48 "2020-07-28T22:09:14Z")
It’s a picture of Klansmen, Invoking Prejudice to penalize creatures of a different race. Totes inclusive, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/49 "2020-07-28T22:22:51Z")
[Here is a thread from 2014](https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/560073-the-art-and-insanity-of-harold-mcneil) on a MTG fansite about the dude. It’s about a guy who picked up the invoke prejudice card, said “WOW THIS IS CLEARLY A BUNCH OF KLANSMEN” and then started looking at Mcneil’s work. Somebody else in the thread described some stuff on the guy’s site before he felt too dirty to continue: > But taken in context of the rest of his stuff, it’s definitely more unsettling. Between the pretty significant use of swastikas which could, I guess, be a (poor) artistic choice, he’s got: > -A picture of 2 men making a Nazi salute framed by “Victory or Death: Compromise Corrupts” > -This rather oblique statement: “Every gardener knows, compassion to the weeds is cruelty to the rose”. > -My personal favorite, Jesus Hitler > -The aforementioned German tank labeled “Ghetto Blaster” > -Another german tank with the phrase “A Country without concentration camps is a park without garbage cans” > -A picture of people with weird masks with the phrase “Israel lies…as the world…dies” > -A picture of a nazi uniform twith the phrase “the inviSSible man our dark times demand” > -A picture of the world with an IQ average for each country that says “Yes, diversity is real” > -A really long quote I don’t really care to read by Adolf Hitler himself, above which it says “why he is still feared and banned.” > -A poem that seems to be about Hitler and what a great guy he was, which I thought seemed too oblique to actually be hard evidence except that it’s also in front of the same background as the above quote, which isn’t used anywhere else (I’m not sure what it is, exactly, but it’s some building). > -A picture of a person with microcephaly with the phrase “true face of american democracy: equality is an evil lie” The guy is a Nazi. Full stop. Googling around for him, it’s apparently been common knowledge for years in the community. If anything, WotC deserves flack for taking this long to move on his artwork. But better late than never. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/50 "2020-07-28T22:24:43Z")
Banning those cards makes sense. On a larger scale, I think MtG has a black/white problem baked into the core of the game. Using white to represent purity and good and black to represent evil and bad is problematic in and of itself. That will be way harder to fix. Baby steps I guess. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/51 "2020-07-28T22:28:55Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > On a larger scale, I think MtG has a black/white problem baked into the core of the game. Using white to represent purity and good and black to represent evil and bad is problematic in and of itself. That will be way harder to fix. I don’t disagree, but it’s terminology that Richard Garfield (the game’s original creator) and WotC didn’t come up with on their own. The terms “[white magic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_magic)” (representing using magic for selfless purposes, or healing) and “[black magic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic)” (representing use of magic for evil or selfish purposes) have been around for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/52 "2020-07-28T22:39:17Z")
When you realize it’s a problem, you change it, regardless of that kind of stuff. Medieval Times, for example, avoids using “black knight” for the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/53 "2020-07-28T23:49:54Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > On a larger scale, I think MtG has a black/white problem baked into the core of the game. Using white to represent purity and good and black to represent evil and bad is problematic in and of itself. That will be way harder to fix. They have attempted to fix that. Demons are still black and Angels are still white, but they have attempted to focus more on black as individualistic and white as collectivist, which is more nuanced. There are “good” black characters who fight against “bad” white authoritarian systems. But, yeah, white = good/clean/pure/holy and black = evil/scary/dirty/other is not by any means limited to Magic, nor can it be entirely divorced from the history of racial oppression. See _Heart of Darkness_ and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/54 "2020-07-29T00:05:29Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Using white to represent purity and good and black to represent evil and bad is problematic in and of itself. That will be way harder to fix. Yeah it’s an easy trope to fall into as in a sense it is sorta baked into the human experience. We’re diurnal apes that have at least some level of atavistic fear of the night and darkness. We don’t see well at night or have any other compensatory senses, so it is when we were at our most vulnerable as a pre-modern species. It’s the time of dangers, real or imagined - a lion stalking us or maybe just that suspicious looking shadow in the bedroom. If we were descended from nocturnal flying squirrels it might be that the cool, comforting darkness would be considered the source of all good and the searing light that was the font of all evil. Unfortunately we’re not, so dark and night have been associated with the underworld since forever. And it is easy to then form an association of death with decay and evil (because nobody likes dying). I sorta like how for example the Malazan books of Erikson and Esslemont explicitly don’t make that connection of darkness, death or decay with evil or corruption (or vice versa), but they’re one of the exceptions in a very long line of the human canon. To be fair the [magic wiki](https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Color) doesn’t list black as representing evil per se. Rather it is: Black: Power, self-interest, death, sacrifice, uninhibited vs. White: Peace, law, structured, selflessness, equality But that is still a little problematic in our larger cultural milieu. Arguably nobody should then be making the leap from a mythologized construct of night and day to skin color, but that’s people for you. We twist everything up. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/55 "2020-07-29T01:08:42Z")
I’ve been playing MTG since the mid nineties. I recently sold a mint Volcanic Island for a few hundred dollars. (That’s not really relevant. I just like to tell people. I originally got the card in a booster pack so it cost me about twenty five cents). Some of the cards, especially Invoke Prejudice were racist. Besides 88= HH=Heil Hitler, a quick look at the Anti Defamation League’s website will reveal that 14= _14 Words_ is a reference to the popular white supremacist slogan: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” 1488? Coincidence? I think not WOTC also owns Dungeons & Dragons and has been fighting racism and stereotypes there as well. In my considered opinion (I’ve been playing D&D since about the second grade) the games are better for it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/56 "2020-07-29T02:36:38Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m not familiar with cards in MtG, so I looked at the artwork for [Invoke Prejudice](https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020/06/wizards-bans-7-cards-that-depict-racism-including-invoke-prejudice/). And holy crap, you need to re-adjust your filters if you detect no hint of racism in that image. Are you not familiar with the KKK? That card has a good representation of their costumes. Coupled with the name _Invoke Prejudice_ and the fact that the artist is evidently known for including “swastikas, Hitler, and other Nazi imagery” in his art, I’m surprised that card lasted as long as it did. Heck, if someone thinks that artwork is good, they need new, not adjusted, filters. Yes, that is obviously a KKK costume in the picture. I had to do a web search for the thing since the link you provided now has a notice that the card was removed for being offensive, which is quite true. And OP: What is MtG all about? It’s a card game. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/57 "2020-07-29T02:55:42Z")
I find it weird that the OP excuses the 1488 as “coincidence,” as if that makes it okay. First of all, it most obviously is NOT coincidence. And yet…what if it were? Would that make it okay? Of course not. Sometimes coincidence produces grotesque results that decent human beings try to mitigate. A classic example is the album George Carlin was working on just before 9/11: > On the nights of September 9 and 10, 2001, the comedian George Carlin performed shows at the MGM Grand casino, in Las Vegas, working through material that he planned to use at the taping of his next HBO special, in November. It was going to be called “I Kinda Like It When a Lotta People Die.” On the morning of September 11th, a lot of people did die. After 9/11, Carlin abandoned much of the hour he’d been working on and rewrote other parts, before taping the special, renamed “Complaints and Grievances,” at the Beacon Theatre, in New York. That fall, at a time when many comedians were struggling, often publicly, with questions about how or when to be funny, there were some things, it seems, that even the combative Carlin considered off-limits. (That quote is from The New Yorker, here: [George Carlin’s Shocking Prescience on the Nights Before 9/11 | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/george-carlins-shocking-prescience-on-the-nights-before-911) – I haven’t got the hang of embedding links yet, sorry.) Per **tavaritz** , I guess George Carlin just should have gone ahead with his original material, because, hey, it was a coincidence? Again, I don’t think the 1488 number was a coincidence. Just that even if it were, it’s not a good argument for keeping the card. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/58 "2020-07-29T03:07:44Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m not familiar with cards in MtG, so I looked at the artwork for [Invoke Prejudice](https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020/06/wizards-bans-7-cards-that-depict-racism-including-invoke-prejudice/). And holy crap, you need to re-adjust your filters if you detect no hint of racism in that image. Are you not familiar with the KKK? That card has a good representation of their costumes. Coupled with the name _Invoke Prejudice_ and the fact that the artist is evidently known for including “swastikas, Hitler, and other Nazi imagery” in his art, I’m surprised that card lasted as long as it did. And let’s not forget the card’s power. You use the card to attack other cards which are a different color than yours. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/59 "2020-07-29T04:03:13Z")
Damn I always thought Magic was just trolls and goblins type stuff, I didn’t know it had Jihad and Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-to-cancel-wizrds-of-the-coasts-bannings-for-pc-reasons-in-mtg/916601/60 "2020-07-29T04:24:08Z")
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