# HELP WANTED:Therapist, witch doctor, or hypnotist. Light John Kerry's Fire. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063 "2004-05-02T00:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/81 "2004-05-05T20:05:12Z")
By Warren Buffet own estimate, 1 percent of the entire Bush’s tax cut, about $300 million, went to–him. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/82 "2004-05-05T20:06:30Z")
By Warren Buffet own estimate, 1 percent of the entire Bush’s tax cut, about $300 million, went to–him. And he is using some of that tax cut to fund Kerry’s campaign. Talking about blowback! ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/83 "2004-05-05T20:55:16Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Liberal Democrat Dopers, just a quick question. > > If George Bush came home from Vietnam, chest full of medals, became a war protester, and then dedicated his life to public service, would you vote for him today? > > Not a single one of you would, and for good reason. It’s because George Bush is a pro-life, tax-cutting, conservative Republican. And liberal Democrats don’t vote for conservative Republicans. Wrong! I consider myself an independent and try to vote for whomever I think is the best person capable of doing the best job for the country. While I voted for Clinton in both elections, I also voted for Bush last time around. Bush has turned out to be a liar, a schemer, a person who is difficult to trust and a whole slew of other negative things which has been covered here and in other threads ad infinitum. While I don’t much believe that what either Bush or Kerry did 30 years ago is germane to what they do or could do today, if the comparison issue keeps getting raised by the Republicans, then on that issue alone, I would choose Kerry. Bush weaseled out of getting drafted and has been unable to prove his whereabouts for much of his time in the guard. While he has an “Honorable discharge” on paper, the paper is not worth a dime to anyone other than his supporters. It would do the Republicans well to forget Vietnam and what Kerry did with medals/ribbons because there is no way that Bush can come out ahead on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/84 "2004-05-06T03:19:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > For those interested, here is what John Kerry advocated in his 1984 Senate campaign regarding defense. Hyperlinks are to scanned images of his campaign flyer. > > [http://users.wi.net/~johnh/KerryOnDefense1984\_1.jpg](http://users.wi.net/~johnh/KerryOnDefense1984_1.jpg) > > [http://users.wi.net/~johnh/KerryOnDefense1984\_2.jpg](http://users.wi.net/~johnh/KerryOnDefense1984_2.jpg) > > Now, in addition to cutting Tomahawk, as mentioned above, what else did John Kerry call for? > > He called for cancellation of the Marine Corps’ Harrier jet program, which provides air support to Marine forces on the ground. > > He called for cancellation of the Aegis cruiser program. Aegis cruisers, and now also Aegis destroyers, are vital parts of carrier battle groups, providing air defense for the carrier itself. In addition, the cruisers and destroyers carry the Tomahawk missiles that give the Navy additional strike capability. I was proud to serve on an Aegis cruiser for two years, so I know first hand what capabilities it provides to the Navy. > > He called for cancellation of the F-15 and F-14 programs. Our military is now, in 2004, critically short of fighter aircraft. This problem would have been disastrous if these aircraft programs had been cancelled in 1984. > > He called for cancellation of the Navy’s only long range air-to-air missile, the Phoenix, with nothing to replace it. > > Now, I know a campaign document doesn’t translate to votes on the floor. And it’s possible that John Kerry came to his senses later. But this flyer is not reasonable in the context of the threats in the world in 1984, and John Kerry was irresponsible in advocating these cuts. > > For those wanting a debate, here’s something to debate. It has nothing to do with medals, medical records, SUV’s, or ski slopes. And it has a direct impact on the sort of fighting force we’re fielding today. If John Kerry had his way, in 1984, they’d be fighting in Afghanistan with the same gear he had in 'Nam. **Mr. Moto** , surely then you will not be voting for Bush/Cheney! > [@](#): > > And Richard Cheney himself, who is now Vice President but who then was Secretary of Defense, also proposed canceling the Apache helicopter program five years after Kerry did. As Cheney told the House Armed Services Committee on Aug. 13, 1989: > > Cheney: The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward, AH-64; . . . I forced the Army to make choices. I said, “You can’t have all three. We don’t have the money for all three.” So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out. That would save $1.6 billion in procurement and $200 million in spares over the next five years. > > Two years later Cheney’s Pentagon budget also proposed elimination of further production of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle as well. It was among 81 Pentagon programs targeted for termination, including the F-14 and F-16 aircraft. “Cheney decided the military already has enough of these weapons,” the Boston Globe reported at the time. > > Does that make Cheney an opponent of “weapons vital to winning the war on terror?” Of course not. But by the Bush campaign’s logic, Cheney himself would be vulnerable to just such a charge, and so would Bush’s father, who was president at the time. [http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177) Or are you a hypocrite? > [@](#): > > An examination of Kerry’s real voting record during his 20 years in the Senate indicates that he did vote to restrict or cut certain weapons systems. From 1989-92, he supported amendments to halt production of the B-2 stealth bomber. (In 1992, George H.W. Bush halted it himself.) It is true that the B-2 came in handy during the recent war in Iraq—but for reasons having nothing to do with its original rationale. > > […] > > At the same time, in 1991, Kerry opposed an amendment to impose an arbitrary 2 percent cut in the military budget. In 1992, he opposed an amendment to cut Pentagon intelligence programs by $1 billion. In 1994, he voted against a motion to cut $30.5 billion from the defense budget over the next five years and to redistribute the money to programs for education and the disabled. That same year, he opposed an amendment to postpone construction of a new aircraft carrier. In 1996, he opposed a motion to cut six F-18 jet fighters from the budget. In 1999, he voted against a motion to terminate the Trident II missile. (Interestingly, the F-18 and Trident II are among the weapons systems that the RNC claims Kerry opposed.) I swear, it has honestly gotten to the point that every time a Republican makes a claim, I anticipate that it is an exaggeration, a half-truth, a misstatement or a lie. I’d quote Crash Davis from _Bull Durham_ to you, in reference to the quality of the pitches you are throwing, but this is not the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/85 "2004-05-06T03:22:09Z")
Sorry - the latter quote above is from here: [http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/86 "2004-05-06T10:15:57Z")
I’m not saying some cuts weren’t warranted. I’m not making wild charges here. What I’m saying is that the cuts John Kerry wanted in 1984 were irresponsible to the point of being reckless. And I notice none of you are rushing to defend them. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/87 "2004-05-06T10:49:35Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’m not saying some cuts weren’t warranted. I’m not making wild charges here. > > What I’m saying is that the cuts John Kerry wanted in 1984 were irresponsible to the point of being reckless. And I notice none of you are rushing to defend them. That’s because it’s stupid to focus on what he was or might have been thinking 20 odd years ago. I’ve changed my views radically over the last 20 years (oh, and I also did some pretty reckless things back then \). I’m sure many people, including Kerry have also. Bush was drunken bum 20 years ago. Do you want to drege that up also? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/88 "2004-05-06T13:20:34Z")
It’s hardly trivial to focus on it, **iamme99** , for two reasons. First of all, the lifecycle for research, development, building, and follow-on of weapons systems isn’t measured in months or years, like with consumer products. It’s measured in decades. The Tomahawk was first proposed in a white paper in 1972, when I was a toddler. It became operational in the mid-1980’s, when I was in junior high. I worked on the system as a sailor in the mid-90’s. Today, as a systems engineer, I work on a team helping to develop new capabilities for the missile. All this from a program started decades ago. It’s clear that John Kerry’s cuts, had they been made in 1984, would have had large impacts today, even decades later. And that is why they are a proper focus of debate. Second, to my knowlege, John Kerry has not disavowed this earlier position of his. I’m willing to concede that his views on defense may have changed in the last twenty years. But I’d like to see some proof that they have, in fact, done so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/89 "2004-05-06T13:23:31Z")
A Republican and a Democrat are chatting in a bar. The Republican says, “Man, John Kerry’s views on education and welfare just make me cringe.” The Democrat shouts, “Stop attacking his Vietnam record!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/90 "2004-05-06T19:53:06Z")
The Republican angrily replied: "Well ‘Dubya’ Bush never threw _his_ medals away !! " 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/91 "2004-05-06T21:50:56Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > The Republican angrily replied: > "Well ‘Dubya’ Bush never threw _his_ medals away !! " > 😃 Big ha, ha! That made my day. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/92 "2004-05-07T02:55:19Z")
Glad we all got a nice laugh. I still see nobody rushing to defend the proposed crippling John Kerry 1984 defense cuts. Can’t say as I’m surprised. No point defending the indefensible. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/93 "2004-05-07T03:15:10Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > For those wanting a debate, here’s something to debate. It has nothing to do with medals, medical records, SUV’s, or ski slopes. And it has a direct impact on the sort of fighting force we’re fielding today. If John Kerry had his way, in 1984, they’d be fighting in Afghanistan with the same gear he had in 'Nam. Assuming that his way in 1984 would permanently cripple our military, and if the facts later on showed that we actually needed that stuff Kerry would have still voted against it? Do you honestly believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/94 "2004-05-07T03:28:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Glad we all got a nice laugh. > > I still see nobody rushing to defend the proposed crippling John Kerry 1984 defense cuts. > > Can’t say as I’m surprised. No point defending the indefensible. 😉 Well, perhaps if you gave something more of a detailed or thought out analysis of the memo, rather than simply posting it and essentially saying, “Huh, huh? See?” Perhaps there would be an argument. I have already pointed out that Dick Cheney actually called for and made some of the same cuts and terminations of programs that Kerry called for, but your argument in response was to suggest that when Cheney does it, those are warranted. Why are Kerry’s not warranted? For example, you have several times pointed to the Tomahawk missiles on the memo, suggesting that Kerry wanted to eliminate or severely curtail a weapons program that has been used effectively in several situations since then. But have they really? Please note that the header for the category you are so het up about is "Major Nuclear Programs.” Please tell me when we ever used our nuclear Tomahawk missiles, because I sure didn’t hear about it. In fact, it appears that Bush I is the same weakling on defense that you would have us believe Kerry is, because the nuclear Tomahawk arsenal was in fact shelved by Bush I in 1991, seven years after Kerry called for its reduction. > **[Center for Defense Information](https://www.pogo.org/center-for-defense-information/)** > > The Center for Defense Information at POGO aims to secure far more effective and ethical military forces at significantly lower cost. > [@](#): > > The Tomahawk TLAM-N (Tomahawk Land Attack Missile - Nuclear) sea-launched cruise missiles (SLCM) was carried aboard a variety of ships and submarines. All have been removed and are in storage since September 1991, when President Bush recalled all non-SLBM sea-based nuclear weapons (a sweeping measure, which when included with the Russian reciprocation, removed on the order of 6,000 operational warheads). Now, please explain why you are talking about the conventional Tomahawk missile program when Kerry was clearly describing a “Major Nuclear Program?” Please explain why it was such a bad idea for Kerry to call for it, when GHW Bush actually shelved them less than a decade later? Please provide some more specific analysis that illustrates which elements of Kerry’s calls for reductions or eliminations weren’t actually endorsed or even carried out by Cheney or Bush I later, and why these were markedly bad ideas. Otherwise, I might be prone to imagine that you simply saw this memo on a right wing site, described as evidence that Kerry would cripple the military, and posted it here without giving it any moment of thought at all. Surely you wouldn’t do that! Every god damned single thing they say… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/95 "2004-05-07T03:31:22Z")
What I believe, **Blalron** , is what’s down here in black and white. John Kerry wanted to get rid of Tomahawk cruise missiles, Aegis cruisers, Harrier jets, nearly all fighter jets, and badly needed Phoenix missiles. You can believe that he didn’t, if you want too, but that’s in contravention of the evidence I’ve helpfully provided. If you’d like to demonstrate that John Kerry wouldn’t cripple defense if given half a chance, pony up some evidence of your own. I would love to believe that John Kerry wouldn’t strip the military down to the point where the air force really is holding bake sales to buy bombers. But reading excrement like this doesn’t fill me with confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/96 "2004-05-07T03:49:42Z")
And, **Hentor** , two points. The nuclear Tomahawk and the conventional Tomahawk were part of the same weapons program. The missiles didn’t differ by much except the explosive warhead. John Kerry’s calls for massive cuts in the Tomahawk program would have cut both the conventional and nuclear variants. Unless, of course, there was a distinction made in legislation. But there was no distinction made in the program then or now, and the document in question doesn’t seem to separate the two variants. Secondly, I did not write this campaign flyer in 1984. John Kerry and his campaign did. Blaming me for its existence is a bit much. Like I said before, I was in junior high at the time, and I really had other priorities. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/97 "2004-05-07T04:00:24Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > What I believe, **Blalron** , is what’s down here in black and white. John Kerry wanted to get rid of Tomahawk cruise missiles, Aegis cruisers, Harrier jets, nearly all fighter jets, and badly needed Phoenix missiles. > > You can believe that he didn’t, if you want too, but that’s in contravention of the evidence I’ve helpfully provided. If you’d like to demonstrate that John Kerry wouldn’t cripple defense if given half a chance, pony up some evidence of your own. > > I would love to believe that John Kerry wouldn’t strip the military down to the point where the air force really is holding bake sales to buy bombers. But reading excrement like this doesn’t fill me with confidence. If Kerry hates the military so much, why has he supported 16 out of the 19 Defense Authorization bills since elected to the Senate? Why not demonize Dick Cheney for the [defense cuts](http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker/archives/001594.html#001594) that he supported? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/98 "2004-05-07T04:00:58Z")
**Mr\_moto** , I am not American and I don’t give a damn about American military spending. However, your repeated claim that Kerry wanted to destroy all these weapons programs, and that noone has ponied up evidence to the contrary, is being obtuse to the point of dishonesty. Various posters in this thread have pointed out that: - He voted against a couple of general Pentagon appropriations bills, not against specific weapons systems - His rhetoric was more focussed on excessive spending in general, rather than specific systems. When he did focus on specific systems, as in the 1984 campaign material you cited, he referred to nuclear-fitted Tomohawks, not Tomahawks in general. - Various Republicans voted against the appropriations bills and spoke out about specific weapons systems, amongst them Dick Cheney. Keep beating this dead horse if you want to, but other posters HAVE made a reasonable effort to debunk you. Address their specific criticisms, rather than posting general statements that noone’s rushing to defend Kerry’s policies, if you want to win over uninterested / disinterested watchers like myself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/99 "2004-05-07T04:25:56Z")
**lambchops** , the Tomahawks aside, nobody is addressing the fighter cuts advocated, or the Aegis cruisers, or the Harrier planes. I have never said that defense cuts weren’t necessary after the Cold War was over. However, Kerry’s advocated cuts were in 1984, at a time of great tension in the world. And it is a good thing they weren’t enacted - that responsible politicians of both parties saw to it that these programs continued. John Kerry’s plan was an embarassment to a lot of Democrats at the time, I’d bet. Pro-defense Dems like Tip O’Neill, John Murtha, John Stennis, Lee Hamilton and Sam Nunn must have been appalled. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063/100 "2004-05-07T04:40:02Z")
This is getting really redundant. I say let Mr. Moto wallow in 1984 all alone. I’d rather focus on today’s important issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-wanted-therapist-witch-doctor-or-hypnotist-light-john-kerrys-fire/243063.md?page=6)