# Help with a Latin phrase? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890 "2008-09-03T16:58:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/1 "2008-09-03T16:58:29Z")
I’ve been trying to find the meaning of **Inlitterati lumen fidei** –which is a lyric from Wilco’s _Theologians_. I’ve googled, of course, but I’ve either found Latin-to-English dictionaries which tells me the literal translations, but not the proper grammar. So I know that it’s “ignorant/illiterate” “light/eye” “faithful/loyal/honest.” I’ve also found forums where peple tak lIKe thiz that claim to have translations, but it’s rather important that I get as close to the right meaning as possible. ---
**Author:** ![dactylic\_hexameter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@dactylic\_hexameter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dactylic_hexameter)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/2 "2008-09-03T18:05:18Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I’ve been trying to find the meaning of **Inlitterati lumen fidei** –which is a lyric from Wilco’s _Theologians_. I’ve googled, of course, but I’ve either found Latin-to-English dictionaries which tells me the literal translations, but not the proper grammar. So I know that it’s “ignorant/illiterate” “light/eye” “faithful/loyal/honest.” I’ve also found forums where peple tak lIKe thiz that claim to have translations, but it’s rather important that I get as close to the right meaning as possible. Sorry, my latin’s a bit rusty, but this may help. First of all, **fidei** isn’t an adjective in this case - that would be fidi. Here it is the genitive (possessive) of **fides** , meaning “of trust” or “of loyalty” or “of faith”. **Inlitterati** is kind of a fake latin word - it doesn’t show up in most of the old dictionaries; that being said, it can be inferred to mean “ignorant”, as you said. The strange thing is, **lumen** and \*\*fidei \*\*are both nouns, but **inlitterati** cannot modify either of them, as the cases/gender/number don’t agree. The best I could come up with is to assume that Wilco made a mistake and thought that **inlitterati** (potentially a _masculine_ genitive singular), could modify \*\*fidei \*\*(a _feminine_ genitive singular). This would yield, **lumen inlitterati fidei** “the light of ignorant faith/belief/trust”. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/3 "2008-09-03T19:19:33Z")
That does help, thanks. I actually want to use it in a tattoo design, but I don’t want to be like those people who get Chinese characters to mean “faith hope and beauty” and end up with “cow moon jockstrap” or something like that. Unfortunately, it’s really hard to find the exact phrase. Somebody on another site suggested that the proper Latin is _Inlitteratum_ lumen fidei. Is that true? Does it make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/4 "2008-09-03T20:22:54Z")
I would so get cow moon jockstrap tattoo’d on the back of my neck in chinese That would be awesome: anglos would think I was cool and asians would laugh their arses off. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/5 "2008-09-04T07:51:07Z")
Could _inlitterati_ be a typo for _inlitteratis_ - dative plural? The Light of Faith to the bed-ridden / ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![dactylic\_hexameter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@dactylic\_hexameter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dactylic_hexameter)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/6 "2008-09-04T17:03:57Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > That does help, thanks. I actually want to use it in a tattoo design, but I don’t want to be like those people who get Chinese characters to mean “faith hope and beauty” and end up with “cow moon jockstrap” or something like that. Unfortunately, it’s really hard to find the exact phrase. Somebody on another site suggested that the proper Latin is _Inlitteratum_ lumen fidei. Is that true? Does it make a difference? Ok, did some more research. Inlitterati is the uncontracted form of illiterati, and is perfectly acceptable, although somewhat archaic latin. If the word is actually inlitteratum, that could modify lumen, making it “the ignorant light of faith.” For the love of Og, please don’t get a tattoo based on my translation skills. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/7 "2008-09-04T17:21:45Z")
‘Lumen fidei’ is certainly ‘the light of faith’ but inlitterati (which is archaic in any case) is either genitive singular (of the ignorant man) or nominative plural (the ignorant ones) The double genitive seems weird to me, but is more likely to be what is going on, in a song called ‘theologians’ anyway: ‘The light of faith of the ignorant man’ (word order, of the ignorant man, the light of faith). This way it implies that the light, which is constitued of faith, is possessed by the ignorant man. Hope that makes some sense… ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/8 "2008-09-05T00:50:21Z")
It does make sense. Thank you, **Daphne**. > [@](#): > > This way it implies that the light, which is constitued of faith, is possessed by the ignorant man. That makes sense with the rest of the lyrics. _Inlitterati Lumen Fidei God is with us every day That illiterate light Is with us every night_. So I thought he was trying for a pun–literally that the “illiterate light”=“faith”, plus the more grammatical meaning. So the third and fourth lines would mean “Faith is with us every night” (when God isn’t). Your translation is the most coherent translation I’ve ever seen of the line, and fits with the rest of the song perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![dhb41](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58f4c7/32.png) [@dhb41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhb41)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/9 "2011-02-25T16:07:29Z")
it’s… “illiterati” lumen fedei not “iNlitterati” (internet lyric sites have botched it) I am looking at the lyrics from the cd booklet right now. … il·lit·e·ra·ti    –plural noun Informal . illiterate or ignorant people. Origin: 1780–90; blend of illiterate and literati ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-a-latin-phrase/461890/10 "2011-02-25T16:38:49Z")
> [@dhb41](#): > > it’s… > > “illiterati” lumen fedei > > not “iNlitterati” (internet lyric sites have botched it) > > I am looking at the lyrics from the cd booklet right now. > > … > > il·lit·e·ra·ti    > –plural noun Informal . > illiterate or ignorant people. > > Origin: > 1780–90; blend of illiterate and literati The origin quoted above may be how the word got created in English, but it’s unnecessary for Latin. As noted above, _illiterati_ is the correct form for the masculine plural adjective of _illiteratus_, in turn from _in-_ (negative prefix) + _littera_ (letter), “unlettered.” Adjectives are often used substantivally: “unlettered person.” No need to invent based on “literati” (the same word, anyway). [All forms attested with variation between -t- and -tt-]