# help with beginner's Japanese **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725 "2003-06-09T21:39:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/21 "2003-06-11T14:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jovan \* > \*\*Yes, it’s used quite often. As has been mentioned, it’s used to refer to a group of (generally) people. “Ra” is it’s rougher equivalent… And that, of course, is what my poor brain was struggling to cough up. The “tachi” ending always sounded rather Japanese-textbook to me, at least in ordinary conversation among people my (then-) age, early 20s. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/22 "2003-06-11T17:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scr4 \* > \*\*Unless he meant _keiko_ as in practice or training. I’d guess **Shodan** is talking about judo or some other martial arts. \*\* Yes - sorry for the lack of clarity. This was in judo practice. _shikkei_. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tsubaki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@Tsubaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tsubaki)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/23 "2003-06-12T00:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jovan \* > \*\*Personally I say: “Suman, nihongo wa ye$B!&e(Bshaberehen kedo na, Kansai-ben wa shabette harun’ dekka?” \*\* Show-off! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![nevermore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a587f6/32.png) [@nevermore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevermore)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/24 "2003-06-12T21:27:57Z")
Wow, lots of replies! It’s amazing what you miss when AOL decides it doesn’t want to play with you for a few days. About the numbers…seriously, is it that bad? What am I missing? Telling time is hard for me, but the numbers themselves, at least up to 10,000, seem pretty easy. Sorry if I seem ignorant, but, well, I suppose I am. And, I guess I won’t be saying “I’m sorry, I don’t speak Japanese very well” to anyone, because it looks to me a bit of a contradiction in terms. =S > [@](#): > > This is very intresting. How are you learning? Tapes? No, I’m taking it at UT. My goal is to be able to read and write Japanese, so I didn’t think tapes would do me much good. I mean, I’d like to speak it too, but that’d really be more like a bonus. > [@](#): > > Whatever stress there is in Japanese (i.e. “hashi - bridge” vs. “hashi - chopstick”) is so subtle as to be almost inaudible to the untrained ear and the begginer should focus on speaking in an even, monotonous, fashion. Really? My professor tells us the exact opposite; she’s focusing a _lot_ on stresses and pitch changes and syllable lengths. She says she wants to teach it to us the way Japanese people actually speak, so we don’t sound unnatural. I’m sure I would sound unnatural to a fluent person either way, though. So, does anyone have a recommendation for a big fat book of Kanji? Or the same for Japanese verbs? I would prefer ones that don’t conveniently leave “bad” stuff out, since I like some of the darker anime. …damn, I need a devil smilie. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/25 "2003-06-12T22:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nevermore \* > **Really? My professor tells us the exact opposite; she’s focusing a _lot_ on stresses and pitch changes and syllable lengths.** Well, syllable lengths are extremely easy. Every mora (the proper term for a Japanese syllable) is exactly the same length as every other mora. There are double vowels, but they’re actually two seperate moras, so the length is exactly double. If you read something written in kana, it’s quite easy, because each kana is one mora. ---
**Author:** ![nevermore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a587f6/32.png) [@nevermore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevermore)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/26 "2003-06-13T00:45:03Z")
OK, maybe syllable lengths was the wrong term…by that I meant basically how you deal with double vowels/consonants and silent letters. ---
**Author:** ![Tsubaki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@Tsubaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tsubaki)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/27 "2003-06-13T00:51:31Z")
The problem with numbers isn’t the numbers themselves but the way you count different objects. For example, bottles would be counted as “ippon, nihon, sanbon, yonhon…” (hon is the counting word for long, thin objects) Dogs would be “ippiki, nihiki, sanbiki, yonhiki…” (hiki is the word for counting animals generally smaller than humans) Books are “issatsu, nisatsu, sansatsu, yonsatsu…” (same for magazines or comics; you use satsu). The list goes on and on…and on! ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/28 "2003-06-13T01:09:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jovan \* > **Oh and, Hibernicus, IMHO “dewa arimasen” reeks of textbook gaijin-speak. “Nihongo wa amari jôzu janai desu” is much more natural-sounding.** True. Or with an “-n” after the “nai”. But the textbooks teach the -masu form first for a reason: it’s polite enough for all normal situations. \*\* > [@](#): > > Personally I say: “Suman, nihongo wa yô shaberehen kedo na, Kansai-ben wa shabette harun’ dekka?” \*\* My father-in-law speaks in that dialect, and I can’t understand him most of the time! ---
**Author:** ![nevermore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a587f6/32.png) [@nevermore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevermore)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/29 "2003-06-13T01:10:24Z")
oh my…god. I had no idea. _choking on tears_ …_or vomit_ ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725/30 "2003-06-13T02:44:13Z")
Counters are _insane_. As for kanji learning methods, I’d been trying everything everybody tries - learning the radicals, crazy mnemonics, but I still felt I wasn’t doing as well as I should. So I’ve been trying a book by, um, James Heisig, I think - _Remembering the Kanji_. His idea is that it’s silly as an adult to try to learn both the meanings and the readings, and that it works a lot better to just learn the meanings (his book is heavy on mnemonics) and learn the readings when you already know what they mean. Now, I haven’t gotten to the “put the readings to it” part yet, but I’ve been pretty impressed with how well the learning the meanings part has been. I highly reccomend you at least give it a look, although it’s definately not the orthodox way to go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-beginners-japanese/180725.md?page=1)