# Help with Lois McMaster Bujold, please **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 16, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702 "2006-07-16T04:17:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/1 "2006-07-16T04:17:35Z")
I’m trying to figure out the reading list for the Vorkosigan saga, but all the sites I’m finding are a mess. Can anyone tell me the order? I’ve just finished _Shards of Honor_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/2 "2006-07-16T04:20:00Z")
From [here](http://www.dendarii.com/biblio.html): Dreamweaver’s Dilemma in Dreamweaver’s Dilemma (1996) [DD] Falling Free (1988) [FF] Shards of Honor (1986) [SoH] Barrayar (1991) The Warrior’s Apprentice (1986) [TWA] The Mountains of Mourning in Borders of Infinity (1989) [tMoM] The Vor Game (1990) [TVG] Cetaganda (1995) Ethan of Athos (1986) [EoA] Labyrinth in Borders of Infinity (1989) The Borders of Infinity in Borders of Infinity (1987) Brothers in Arms (1989) [BiA] Linking sections of Borders of Infinity (1989) [BoI] Mirror Dance (1994) [MD] Memory (1996) Komarr (1998) A Civil Campaign (1999) [ACC] Winterfair Gifts (2004) [WG] Diplomatic Immunity (2002) [DI] Have fun. These are some awesome books. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/3 "2006-07-16T04:22:06Z")
I saw that list, but it puts a 1988 book before a 1986 book, which makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/4 "2006-07-16T04:27:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I saw that list, but it puts a 1988 book before a 1986 book, which makes no sense to me. It is because _Falling Free_ is set in the same universe as the Vorkosigan novels but is a stand alone book about the creation of the quaddies. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/5 "2006-07-16T04:31:39Z")
_Falling Free_ is actually set several centuries before the events of most of the other novels, about the foundation of one of the background cultures from the main books. It’s very cool, but doesn’t tie in directly to the rest of the series. _Dreamweaver’s Dilemma_, apparently, is set even earlier, but I haven’t read it yet. Also, _Ethan of Athos_ is contemporary with the Miles Vorkosigan novels, but stars a secondary character from that series. A lot of the short stories are set further back in the chronology of the series, too. (If you think this is bad, try Stephen Burst some day. No, seriously: try him, he’s awesome. But figuring out wether to read the books in chronological order or order published is a debate up there with wether Balrogs have wings.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/6 "2006-07-16T04:35:19Z")
But reading them in chronological order is like watching the Star Wars prequels first. It’s wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/7 "2006-07-16T04:40:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But reading them in chronological order is like watching the Star Wars prequels first. It’s wrong! The weird thing about Brust is, reading them in order published is almost like watching _The Empire Strikes Back_ first, then _Return of the Jedi_, and finally _Star Wars_. I argue for reading them in order published just because it’s such a neat trick, the way it all ties together, but there are a lot of big reveals in the “earlier” books that are spoiled because it’s common knowledge in the “later” books. Anyway, the point with Bujold is you don’t have to read _Falling Free_ at any particular point in the series. I only read it after I’d exhausted all the Miles stories that were available at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/8 "2006-07-16T05:11:24Z")
Bujold has said that when she was a kid she never seemed to be able to find the books of a series in order, so she has tried to make it possible to read the series in any order. And the earlier books, novellas and short stories jump around in chronology, so don’t worry about them too much. The later ones…“Brothers in Arms” and forward…shoudl probably be read in published order. If you read “Shards of Honor” the next book should be “Barrayar” or “The Warrior’s Apprentice”. Doesn’t matter much which. “Shards of Honor” was originally Star Trek fanfiction. The Betans were Federation, the Barryarans were Klingons. Bujold peeled off the Star Trek branding when she decided to try and publish it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/9 "2006-07-16T20:34:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “Shards of Honor” was originally Star Trek fanfiction. The Betans were Federation, the Barryarans were Klingons. Bujold peeled off the Star Trek branding when she decided to try and publish it. That I did not know. Neat! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/10 "2006-07-16T21:19:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Bujold has said that when she was a kid she never seemed to be able to find the books of a series in order, so she has tried to make it possible to read the series in any order. Okay. I shall place my faith in the kindness of Dopers. Like **Miller** , I find that trivia about the Star Trek fanfiction, pardon the pun, fascinating. I’m glad she decided to seek publication. I haven’t been this excited about an author in quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/11 "2006-07-16T21:35:49Z")
PSSSSST … Lois-Bujold mailing list [Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk](mailto:Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk) [http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold](http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold) \ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/12 "2006-07-16T22:33:48Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > PSSSSST … > Lois-Bujold mailing list > [Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk](mailto:Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk) > [http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold](http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold) > \ Simon Illyan’s minions saw you 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/13 "2006-07-16T23:30:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “Shards of Honor” was originally Star Trek fanfiction. The Betans were Federation, the Barryarans were Klingons. Bujold peeled off the Star Trek branding when she decided to try and publish it. Do you have a definitive cite? The only evidence I’ve ever heard of this is that she had Star Trek fanfiction in an ezine before she started writing “real” books. Bujold emphatically denies it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/14 "2006-07-17T03:16:45Z")
Most of the earlier books have been republished in omnibus editions: Cordelia’s Honor = Shards of Honor and Barrayar Young Miles = The Warrior’s Apprentice, Mountains of Mourning, and The Vor Game Miles, Mystery and Mayhem = Cetaganda, Ethan of Athos, and Labyrinth Miles Errant = Borders of Infinity, Brothers in Arms, and Mirror Dance Another thing to consider is that Bujold has definitely improved as a writer over the years. Her early work, while enjoyable, is not as well developed as her later books. So you might read her first two books and decide you don’t like her style and miss out of her better work. ---
**Author:** ![JCorre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@JCorre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JCorre)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/15 "2006-07-17T06:15:08Z")
I’ve read the series a few times now and I always tell newbies to start with “Warrior’s Apprentice” and read to the end of the series, then go and read “Shards of Honor” and “Barrayar”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/16 "2006-07-17T12:13:51Z")
OK, weighing in on this: 1. _Falling Free_ is a completely independent story that takes place in the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga, and provides the “origin story” for a character in “Labyrinth” and significant data for _Diplomatic Immunity_. It can be read at any time, except that it should precede _DI_ – not that you **need** it first, but the plot and incidents of _DI_ will make more sense and trigger more associations if you know _FF_. 2. _Shards of Honor_ and _Barrayar_ are a two-book set, dealing with the meeting of Aral and Cordelia during wartime and the consequences from that. They must be read in that order as between them, but are virtual standalones giving background but not essential to the Miles story arc. 3. The remainder of the books, setting _Dreamweaver’s Dilemma_, which I have not read, and one other item, to one side for the moment, are the life of Miles N. Vorkosigan, whose physical problems, career(s), and life generally are intricately woven across a multi-book sequence. While Lois has done an estimable job of ensuring that each book is worthwhile to the casual reader who doesn’t know the backstory, that backstory gets so cumbersome that (as mentioned above) any book after _Brothers in Arms_ in the story arc really calls for knowledge of What Has Gone Before (despite her Herculean efforts to include that information without resorting to the infamous Indigestible Chunk of Narration). (Compare “Casablanca” – it makes sense as a movie by itself, say to a kid with no knowledge of history yet, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense if you know _why_ the various characters are doing the things they’re doing, why Renault fears and loathes Strasser, why Rick and Ilsa cannot just go back to Paris, why the two letters of transit are important, and so on.) Accordingly, don’t feel that you need to read the sequence _TWA, TVG, Cetaganda, BoI, BiA_ in that order (in fact _Cetaganda_ was a late story, filling a gap and providing needed background), but it would help to get the (highly improbable) story line in chronological sequence. As pointed out previously by others, Lois’s story telling skills have improved, so the 1980s books are merely excellent, and the later ones better. Starting, however, with _Mirror Dance_ and continuing therefrom, the presumed backstory which Lois works from, and as noted does attempt to feed you in bite-size morsels, has gotten so complex that one **really** benefits from taking them in order. 1. Now, the one oddball exception to the sequence: _Ethan of Athos_ is set in the Vorkosiganverse, shares characters with other books, but is so much a standalone incident that it can be read at any time before, after, or without other Bujold stories. It should be mentioned that _Borders of Infinity_ is one of those cutesy books where shorter works are united in a frame story. As an example of that rather obnoxious genre, it works reasonably well, but it’s pretty clear that it’s a way to pull the three less-than-novel-length pieces in the series into book form. I also find that they are probably some of the finest examples extant of pulling character development and telling a gripping good story into the same novels, and deserve reading for that alone. The **other** interesting thing about Lois’s work is her “tidiness” – there are **no** “loose ends” left unexplained over the full story arc, unless they are ones that are the setup for future books. A character with a minor role in _Shards of Honor_ becomes a leading supporting cast member in _The Warrior’s Apprentice_, has a significant cameo in _The Vor Game_, then is “voices off” for several further books, and then becomes a key element in Miles’s ability to connect with a space-mad nine-year-old in _Komarr_ – who in turn has minor roles in the next few books. We meet Dag Benin in _Cetaganda_, then he is tabled for a while, does a cameo in _A Civil Campaign_ and a major offstage role and significant presence at the denouement in _Diplomatic Immunity_. Cordelia’s mother has minor cameo appearances or offstage roles in a number of the stories. And so on. **All** her characters are real, with inner motivations, strengths, fears, weaknesses, actual reasons for what they do. If somebody is comic relief foil in Book A, rest assured you’ll get an idea of why he/she does what he/she does in Book B – sometimes a soul-searing answer you may regret having gotten. ---
**Author:** ![beowulf573](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@beowulf573](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulf573)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/17 "2006-07-17T12:33:42Z")
Her recent fantasy books, “The Curse of Chalion”, “Paladin of Souls”, and “The Hallowed Hunt” are well worth checking out. And for what it’s worth I read the Miles books in chronological order, not published order. Best set of books I’ve read in years. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/18 "2006-07-17T13:18:52Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Simon Illyan’s minions saw you 😉 :smack: Damn impsec … 😃 Actually, the email list is one where Lois hangs out herself [along with the Baen message board Miles to Go, but I dont like the interface there so I dont tend to go there though I am registered… and there is a yahoo group in case the main maillist goes down, and there is a yahoo group for discussing her new books unspoilered] I would suggest joining the email list and you can ask lots of good questions, and we have a FAQ as well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/19 "2006-07-17T16:59:53Z")
> [@beowulf573](#): > > Her recent fantasy books, “The Curse of Chalion”, “Paladin of Souls”, and “The Hallowed Hunt” are well worth checking out. I think they are completely wonderful, especially _Paladin_. That’s why I’m reading the Vorkosigan books, though I generally avoid sf like the plague. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702/20 "2006-07-17T17:29:17Z")
> [@Taran](#): > > Do you have a definitive cite? The only evidence I’ve ever heard of this is that she had Star Trek fanfiction in an ezine before she started writing “real” books. Bujold emphatically denies it. I’m positive I read this in an article Bujold herself wrote, in one of her books. It’s either in Dreamweaver’s Dilemna (which is a collection of short stories and essays) or in the afterword to either Shards of Honor or Barrayar. Or someplace else. But I’m 100% positive I’ve read it in black and white in Bujold’s words. It was in an article about how she became a writer…writing Star Trek scripts with her friends as a kid, writing Shards of Honor as ST fanfiction, then rewriting it completely as a stand alone a few years later to be her first novel. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-with-lois-mcmaster-bujold-please/364702.md?page=2)