# Helping out the USPS. Would this work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 1, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882 "2002-11-01T19:10:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/1 "2002-11-01T19:10:54Z")
I get between 10-15 pieces of junk mail each week, usually for credit card applications. These things are an annoyance, and I usually just throw them away. Usually, they have a self-addressed no-postage-necessary envelope to return the completed application. Here’s my question: 1. Is there any legal ramifications to putting all of the crap they send you into the envelope and mail it back (excluding the applications or any information that would identify the sender, of course)? 2. If #1 is legal, then assuming everyone would do this, what kind of a windfall would the post office get? Could we maintain (or reduce) current postal rates for first class stamps? I would think that the money generated could be significant. And perhaps two good things could come out of it. The credit card companies would be swamped with envelopes that they would have to sort through and throw away, and the USPS would get the revenue from the postage paid for by the credit card company. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/2 "2002-11-01T19:20:27Z")
No money would be generated, at all. The credit card companies pay the postage for all those No Postage Required envelopes in advance to the Post Office. After the credit card company has paid the postage for 250,000 letters, then it has the legal right to order their printer to print up 250,000 No Postage Required envelopes. It’s perfectly legal AFAIK to mail anything you like back to the credit card company in the No Postage Required envelope. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/3 "2002-11-01T20:43:25Z")
I can just see **Max** going to the lead store and purchasing 10-15 envelope-sized lead bricks… ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/4 "2002-11-01T22:07:41Z")
dopers, growing up in houston, texas there was a local? newspaper columnist who complained about junk mail so (warning, this is the unproven part!) he began taping the return envelopes to bricks, allowing the mailer the honor of paying the postage, the post office established some weight limits and this did not work anymore. my personal program is to save postage paid envelopes and those damn magazine cards until i am headed to the post office anyway and just drop them in a mailbox (blank of course). this is how i think it works (but i can not prove it), mass mailers pay up front to move x pieces of mail (due to so many being thrown away) and the post office would just keep track until the account needed “topping off” again. let the flaming begin unclviny ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/5 "2002-11-01T22:41:30Z")
I don’t doubt it’s illegal, but I wonder … what are the precise ramifications of _changing the address_ on a postage-paid return envelope. (And he never bought stamps again …) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/6 "2002-11-01T23:09:54Z")
The mass mailer company buys what’s called a “standard” permit, which is what you and I call “bulk rate” mail. This entitles the mass mailer, for an agreed-upon fee, to mail X number of pieces of mail at the agreed-upon postage rate, and to include X number of No Postage Necessary return envelopes or postcards in his mailing. So the mass mailer gets his mass mailing all ready, and then somebody takes the whole thing down to the local Post Office. It’s usually in big plastic trays that the Post Office loans you. The person (usually the secretary) takes it around to the back, to the loading dock, goes in the designated back door, hands the whole thing over to the designated Bulk Mail receiver person (a clerk), who counts the letters to make sure there are the number agreed upon. > [@](#): > > the post office would just keep track until the account needed “topping off” again. The United States Postal Service operates on a “cash only” basis. The clerk counts how many letters the mass mailer brings, and if he brings more letters than he is entitled to, they don’t get mailed. And you can’t sneak down to the _other_ Post Office and mail them, because when your mass mailing company makes these kind of bulk rate arrangements, you have a designated local post office where you always have to take the letters, and you have to call ahead and tell the clerk that you’re going to be bringing him 250,000 pieces of “standard” mail. Show up at another loading dock with your mail and they’ll just laugh at you. > [@](#): > > changing the address on a postage-paid return envelope Straight from the Horse’s Mouth, the Better Half just having gotten home from work: > [@](#): > > The Post Office just throws it away. And just before he went upstairs to take a shower, he said, “And tell him, as we threw it away, we would say, ‘what an idiot, does he think we’re stupid?’” ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/7 "2002-11-02T00:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*The mass mailer company buys what’s called a “standard” permit, which is what you and I call “bulk rate” mail. This entitles the mass mailer, for an agreed-upon fee, to mail X number of pieces of mail at the agreed-upon postage rate, and to include X number of No Postage Necessary return envelopes or postcards in his mailing. \*\* Are you saying, DDG, that the mailer is then covered, in advance, for the return mail costs–regardless of whether the mailing generates a response rate of 0.01% or 50%? I find that hard to believe. Sometimes charities or political causes will include a postage paid envelope, but add, “Your stamp will save us postage costs”. In other words, if you’re feeling generous, put your stamp over our business reply mark. Why would they do that if their costs were prepaid? Also, the mark typically says, “Postage WILL be paid by addressee”, not “Postage ALREADY HAS been paid by addressee.” ---
**Author:** ![DarkScooterPie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b3f665/32.png) [@DarkScooterPie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkScooterPie)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/8 "2002-11-02T00:21:20Z")
All “no postage needed” envelopes may not be prepaid. I remember getting invoices from USPS based on quantity received. Different plans? Jim ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/9 "2002-11-02T00:45:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*I can just see **Max** going to the lead store and purchasing 10-15 envelope-sized lead bricks… \*\* About those [bricks](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_356.html)… ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/10 "2002-11-02T02:32:02Z")
Oh, okay, I was wrong, I admit it. I was conflating BRM and MRM, which is Meter Reply Mail, which is where you put the postage on the reply card or envelope with a postage meter. For Business Reply Mail, you buy a permit and then you only pay for the returned mail, and the way they do this is, the post office intercepts it on its way back to your office and adds it all up and sends you the bill for it. Which is why the charities say “Put a stamp on it”, because then they don’t get charged for it. BRM. > **[q922.pdf](https://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/qsg/q922.pdf)** MRM. > **[q924.pdf](https://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/qsg/q924.pdf)** Found a nifty “Decision Tree” that explains the differences. > **[Dtrp.pdf](https://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/qsg/Dtrp.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/11 "2002-11-02T03:50:43Z")
That still leaves the original question: when the USPS charges the recipient for a piece of Business Reply Mail, does the USPS actually make a profit on it, or is it a break-even or loss situation? If they make a profit on it, then mailing all that crap back _would_ help the USPS. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/12 "2002-11-02T06:05:15Z")
Even if the Post Office does make a profit from it, why would you think they make more of a profit if there’s a bunch of junk in there? I would think they make the most profit if the envelope is empty. ---
**Author:** ![Wikkit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c0e974/32.png) [@Wikkit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wikkit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/13 "2002-11-02T08:14:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **So the mass mailer gets his mass mailing all ready, and then somebody takes the whole thing down to the local Post Office. It’s usually in big plastic trays that the Post Office loans you.** EMM trays and 1/2 trays are used for stuff like letters, but mail bags are used for non-letters. Things that stack well are put in a pallet-sized cardboard box on a plastic USPS pallet and then shrinkwrapped. > [@](#): > > The person (usually the secretary) takes it around to the back, to the loading dock, goes in the designated back door, hands the whole thing over to the designated Bulk Mail receiver person (a clerk), who counts the letters to make sure there are the number agreed upon. Do you happen to know how they count the big ones? I run around twenty thousand pieces every day, of varying sizes and weights. They’re banded together into groups of 2 to ~500, not very consistently, and the the counts on the flags aren’t terribly accurate due to machine spoilage and human error. ---
**Author:** ![ScottHaneda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@ScottHaneda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScottHaneda)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/14 "2002-11-02T09:29:55Z")
Generally, I like to take a little light reading with me to the bathroom. On occasion, I run out of that ever so important ingredient to a sucessfull bowel movement. So, rather than run around the house with my pants around my ankles, I just use the junk mail for my wiping purposes. Unfortunately, I live in a old condo, where it has been advised my my housing association that the sewer pipes are old, and only certified biodegradeable toilet paper be flushed. Leaving me with no other course of action but to put the junk mail, now “junkier” than ever, in the reply envolope. Often is the case that it gets mixed in with my outgoing mail 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/15 "2002-11-02T13:52:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*Even if the Post Office does make a profit from it, why would you think they make more of a profit if there’s a bunch of junk in there? I would think they make the most profit if the envelope is empty. \*\* Just WAG-ing, but if they make a profit on a piece of mail that’s less than one ounce, maybe they make the same profit, or even more, on each additional ounce, so sending two or three ounces of stuff might bring them more revenue. There is, of course, the added satisfaction of making the junk mailer go through all the stuff in the envelope, just like they tried to make you go through it all! (Yeah, I know, the poor slobs who open the reply mail aren’t the ones you should be targeting - oh, well.) ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/16 "2002-11-03T04:09:16Z")
That makes sense. It was my WAG that they charge a fixed rate for anything less than one ounce, so something that weighs an eighth of an ounce is almost all profit to ship. I guess it still has to be handled, though. Who knows. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/17 "2002-11-03T21:49:44Z")
Good stuff, folks! Since it appears legal, I’ll be looking for those bricks. Sweet. sweet, sweet! ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/18 "2002-11-04T01:16:02Z")
Legal? Yes. Pointless? Yes. From Cecil’s column: > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, your bricks-for-business scheme, admirable though it is in theory, won’t work in practice. According to rule 917.243(b) in the Domestic Mail Manual, when a business reply card is “improperly used as a label”–e.g., when it’s affixed to a brick–the item so labeled may be treated as “waste.” That means the post office can heave it into the trash without further ado. Save your money, Max. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/19 "2002-11-05T01:48:42Z")
Not to worry, DDG. I was kidding about the bricks. Still, if I read the thread correctly, the consensus is that 1. It’s legal and 2. The USPS would make money. Is that correct? Sounds like a win-win to me. Even if I only mail the junk back in their original mailing with the postage-paid envelope. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helping-out-the-usps-would-this-work/134882/20 "2002-11-05T05:00:22Z")
**Early Out** , **Achenar** and others, I think that as long as the return mail is not bulky, the weight of it does not matter much to the USPS depending on transportation method. In my experience, road transport is mostly by volume not weight, and most mail goes by road. I’m in Australia, though, so your mileage (and freight costs) may vary.