# Henry Kissinger Has Died **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884 "2023-11-30T01:59:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/81 "2023-12-01T12:09:54Z")
But Henry did it all for the Greater Good. /s ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/82 "2023-12-01T12:29:32Z")
_the greater good_ ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/83 "2023-12-01T12:37:37Z")
[My book helped to damn Kissinger](https://news.yahoo.com/book-helped-damn-kissinger-200614050.html) > [@](#): > > In 1979 I published a robust book, Sideshow: Kissinger, [Nixon](https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Richard%20Nixon) and the Destruction of Cambodia. It was about the United States’ role in the war in Cambodia from 1970 to 1975, which ended with victory for the horrific communist Khmer Rouge, who then murdered more than two million of Cambodia’s seven million people. > > My thesis was that Nixon and Kissinger, his closest foreign policy adviser, had dealt carelessly with Cambodia as they sought to extricate the US from [the Vietnam war](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/vietnam-war/). In particular they had conducted massive bombing of Cambodia, which contributed to the destruction of traditional Cambodian society and helped the Khmer Rouge to victory. . . . > > I greatly disliked the fact that my book was used on the extreme Left as [proof that Kissinger and the US itself were war criminals](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/30/how-world-newspapers-reacted-henry-kissinger-death/). I believe by contrast that there have been many American mistakes . > . . > > There are enemies of civilisation – Hitler, the Khmer Rouge, [and now Hamas](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/israel-hamas-war/) and other Islamist terrorists – who can never be appeased. Kissinger, the great diplomat, always understood that such groups must be fought and defeated, and that always involves agonising choices. > > As his biographer Robert Kaplan explained on Thursday, Kissinger’s views were uncomfortable and easily caricatured, but “he thought more deeply about morality than many self-styled moralists”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/84 "2023-12-01T12:49:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > I think there is a real danger in judging historical figures only through the prism of modern values. > > … > > However, I do not much include Kissinger in this schema. > > I agree with both these points, and think that they emphasise why Kissinger was so terrible. Exactly. Kissenger was extraordinarily evil because his choices were not only wrong by current standards, they were morally bankrupt by the standards of his time. In fact, he participated in making our own standards worse. Burn in hell, Henry. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/85 "2023-12-01T12:51:55Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > My book helped to damn Kissinger Why did I know before reading the quote or following the link that this was going to be an apologia? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/86 "2023-12-01T14:16:15Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > My book helped to damn Kissinger From a theological standpoint, I don’t think you have that power. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/87 "2023-12-01T14:17:44Z")
I wonder who’s Kissinger now? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/88 "2023-12-01T16:38:52Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > > My book helped to damn Kissinger > > Why did I know before reading the quote or following the link that this was going to be an apologia? [Checks current location of the thread] Oooo!! Oooo!! I know! I know! Because of who posted it. You don’t have to look very long or very hard to come up with reasons to damn Kissinger. You do, however, have to ignore quite a few orders of magnitude to look upon the sins of Obama and the sins of Kissinger and declare them equal. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/89 "2023-12-01T17:21:18Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > There are enemies of civilisation – Hitler, the Khmer Rouge, [and now Hamas](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/israel-hamas-war/) and other Islamist terrorists – who can never be appeased. Kissinger, the great diplomat, always understood that such groups must be fought and defeated, and that always involves agonising choices. Well, we know what Kissinger’s choice was regarding the Khmer Rouge: > You should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won’t let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them. Tell them the latter part, but don’t tell them what I said before. > **[HAK-11-26-75.pdf](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK-11-26-75.pdf)** > > 764.80 KB ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/90 "2023-12-01T17:25:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I wonder who’s Kissinger now? btw I heard someone analyse Dr. Strangelove as von Neumann + Teller + Kahn + Kissinger. So that’s the lot, now. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/91 "2023-12-01T17:27:21Z")
!!! Just realized I was posting in the Pit, something I never wanted to do! This certainly makes some of what I was criticizing much more acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/92 "2023-12-01T17:56:22Z")
Well at least we get to see the humor in Kissinger’s diplomatic conversations. It’s practically an episode of Seinfeld. > The Secretary: Did Ieng Sary impress you? > > Foreign Minister: He is a nice, quiet man. > > The Secretary: How many did he kill? Tens of thousands? > > Foreign Minister: Nice and quietly!! ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/93 "2023-12-01T17:57:50Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > btw I heard someone analyse Dr. Strangelove as von Neumann + Teller + Kahn + Kissinger. So that’s the lot, now. Since Johnny von Neumann, Edward Teller, and Herman Kahn all proceeded Kissinger in shuffling off this mortal coil, I don’t think they can be listed as successors. For note, much of the quotable dialogue from _Dr. Strangelove_ as voiced by several characters was drawn directly from the lectures and essays of nuclear strategist Herman Kahn. As I noted above, Kissinger essentially codified his doctrine of “Realpolitik” foreign policy in [“National Security Study Memorandum 200”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Study_Memorandum_200), colloquially referred to as the “Kissinger Report” which essentially promoted the notion that the United States should engage in whatever foreign policy necessary to ensure access to mineral and energy resources regardless of ethical considerations or eventual blowback (although it did encourage avoiding the appearance of “economic or racial imperialism”). It was specifically focused on preventing economic independence of developing nations by retarding population grown and industrial development, and ensuring protection of American business interests abroad. Kissinger was hardly the first government official to advance this mindset as policy (see the utter shit-fuckery of the Dulles Brothers, or the illegal annexation of the Hawaiian Archipelago, or indeed the 20th century history of US interventions in Haiti for a few of many examples), but he made it the fundamental basis of US foreign and military policy going forward, so essentially all successors are in some way culpable for maintaining and not disavowing that policy. We are all Kissinger; he infected and infested US foreign affairs of state in ways that will long outlive him. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/94 "2023-12-01T18:13:12Z")
I’m not American, nor of a certain age, and _in no way_ am I Kissinger. It takes a certain level of human contempt to carpet bomb a neutral nation, publicly claim you support its leader Sihanouk, back the murderous Khmer Rouge and justify this to “send a message” to the North Vietnamese. There are enough land mines in Cambodia that, according to Obama’s friend Bourdain (admittedly not the best source, but the episode where they met in Vietnam is classic), something like one in two hundred Cambodians is disabled today because of something Kissinger dismissed as having happened sixty years ago. Did he ever acknowledge this? Do anything to try to make it right? Even the dude who wrote _Confessions of an Economic Hitman_ regretted these types of actions in the name of bigger business. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/95 "2023-12-01T18:39:44Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > [Obama told aides . . .](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/obama-drones-double-down_n_4208815) > > > [@](#): > > > > “Turns out I’m really good at killing people," Obama said quietly, “Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.” This quote actually shows the difference between Obama and Kissinger. This gallows humor on Obama’s part demonstrates that he recognizes the moral ambiguity of his actions and that it is not something that he is altogether comfortable with. Kissinger on the other hand appears to be entirely untroubled about the consequence of his recommendations, despite a resulting death toll 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than Obama’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/96 "2023-12-01T18:43:21Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Did he ever acknowledge this? Do anything to try to make it right? Dude, he shared a funny joke about killing tens of thousands with the Thai Foreign Minister about Ieng Sary, what more do you want? If you don’t know who Ieng Sary was (raises hand, I had to google him myself): > **[Ieng Sary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ieng_Sary)** > > Ieng Sary (Khmer: អៀង សារី; 24 October 1925 – 14 March 2013) was the co-founder and senior member of the Khmer Rouge and one of the main architects of the Cambodian Genocide. He was a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Kampuchea led by Pol Pot and served in the 1975–79 government of Democratic Kampuchea as foreign minister and deputy prime minister. He was known as "Brother Number Three" as he was third in command after Pol Pot and Nuon Chea. His wife, Ieng Thirith (née K... See? The real punchline was that in coming years after Henry shared the joke about him killing tens of thousands is that it was just the opening act for him killing millions. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/97 "2023-12-01T19:18:28Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Kissinger on the other hand appears to be entirely untroubled about the consequence of his recommendations, despite a resulting death toll 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than Obama’s. Not just “entirely untroubled”; actually gleeful and continually advising Presidents and Secretaries of State in successive administrations to continue with similar policies as they saw fit to ensure American dominance and access to foreign resources. Robert McNamara (Secretary of Defense in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations) was mentioned above for his culpability in widening the war in Vietnam and his only much later contrition regarding his involvement, but he was one of the few (certainly the only one at a Cabinet level from that time) who came out—if much belatedly—in acknowledging that US involvement in Southeast Asia was misguided, resulted in massive unnecessary deaths of non-combatants, and would be regarded a war crime if he and others were held to account, and also drew conclusions in _In Retrospect_ that engaging in warfare is always a moral compromise (“How much evil must we do to do good?”) that should be weighed heavily before going to war or launching attacks. McNamara was also one of the very few officials to publicly declare and expound upon the severe risks of depending upon nuclear deterrence as a defense strategy (again, after being a promulgator of the _Minuteman_ ICBM system for that purpose). Whatever you think of his motivations, he at least did that much. Kissinger, on the other hand, has never apologized or expressed any equivocation for the moral compromise of his many actions that undermined fledgling democracies, have kept many nations in the “Global South” in an underdeveloped and politically unstable conditions, and directly or proximately resulted in deaths to millions and still active harms today. He enjoyed political favoritism and public approbation for decades, and had an active hand in both undermining the sovereignty of Taiwan to favor mainland China (the consequences of which are obvious today) and the ‘rehabilitation’ of Richard Nixon in the ‘Nineties. He’s basically a cartoonishly evil Rumpelstiltskin-type of kingmaker whose only deprivation for his heinous policies and acts has that he hasn’t been able to travel to certain nations for fear of being arrested and tried. And he got to live a long, comfortable life in relative wealth and renown, suffering only a few vocal detractors and the occasionally satirical political cartoon. Death’s too good for him. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/98 "2023-12-01T19:39:07Z")
They always call it _Realpolitik,_ as opposed to the starry-eyed, pablum-puking doo-gooders. Comparing themselves to Bismarck while ignoring his careful balancing of power in Europe; eschewing it in overseas colonies, or, in the case of Italian reunification, creating power outside his own nation. Kissinger’s idea of Realpolitik was unilateral power. (And they also always point to Woodrow Wilson as the ultimate idiot doo-gooder failure, another historical inaccuracy) “I’ll tell you this: If the sword is all that you’re prepared to show us Britons, then be prepared to carry it forever in your hand, and sleep with it forever at your side at night — for you will need it!” Although Caractacus’ actual speech to Claudius wasn’t at all like that, it’s still a good illustration of what you’re getting when you go all in on unilateral power. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/99 "2023-12-02T02:14:26Z")
NYT opinion piece (gift link): > **[Opinion | Ask Brutalized Cambodians What They Think of Kissinger](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/01/opinion/international-world/kissinger-cambodia-war-legacy.html?unlocked_article_code=1.C00.6ncw.29THEmPHbZZs&smid=url-share)** > > His policies toward civilians in the Vietnam War set a template that would be followed by the U.S. for decades. > As secretary of state and national security adviser under Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, Mr. Kissinger created U.S. war policy in Southeast Asia. His expansion and escalation of the Vietnam War into Cambodia [killed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/henry-kissinger-cambodia-bombing-war/), wounded or displaced hundreds of thousands of civilians. That legacy still reverberates, and not just in bombed and brutalized Cambodian villages. His disregard for civilian casualties in war established a blueprint for the projection of U.S. military power that would have deadly consequences for civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria, among other places. > Earlier this year, just ahead of Mr. Kissinger’s 100th birthday, I published an [investigation](https://theintercept.com/2023/05/23/henry-kissinger-cambodia-bombing-survivors/) in The Intercept of atrocities that had never been revealed and were results of his policies. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884/100 "2023-12-03T19:53:05Z")
Snopes on Kissinger: > **[Did Anthony Bourdain Call Henry Kissinger a ‘Treacherous, Prevaricating,...](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/anthony-bourdain-henry-kissinger-scumbag/?cb_rec=djRfMQ)** > > The outspoken celebrity chef criticized Kissinger for his role in enabling brutal violence in Cambodia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-kissinger-has-died/993884.md?page=6)