# Henry VIII: Nice guy or psychopath? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488 "2008-06-10T21:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/81 "2008-06-17T13:53:47Z")
As lots of people have pointed out Henry was neither nice guy nor psychopath - he was a late medieval/early modern monarch. Being ruthless went with the territory. In thinking about how he dealt with his wives one thing to remember was - like most people at the time - very pious. He really believed in God and in his role as an anointed monarch. Of course there was rationalisation of political expediency but I can well believe he convinced himself that his lack of a son from Catherine of Aragon was a punishment for marrying his brother’s betrothed. And, as King, he would have seen it as a religious duty - as well as a dynastic one - to provide a male heir to the throne. Remember he was given the title “Defender of the Faith” by the Pope for his condemnation of Luther. As I remember it, if it hadn’t been for an accident of timing, he could have got his divorce from Catherine with little fuss. An annulment of a barren marriage was by no means unknown. The trouble was Catherine’s nephew Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, had Pope Clement VII in his power at the wrong time. A few years earlier and the Pope was siding with the French and would have been only too happy to oblige Henry! A final though about Henry’s mental state in his later years - remember he was pretty ill for the last 10-15 years of his life. He had poor circulation, migraines, and painful leg ulcers which can’t have helped his stability. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/82 "2008-06-17T19:01:13Z")
[QUOTE=MarcusF] A final though about Henry’s mental state in his later years - remember he was pretty ill for the last 10-15 years of his life. He had poor circulation, migraines, and painful leg ulcers which can’t have helped his stability. [/QUOTE] On a somewhat related note, it terms of how people usually visualize him, Henry VIII represents an early example of what I call the “Fat Elvis” effect. Henry, like the later "King of Rock n’ Roll, was actually quite fit for most of his life. Unfortunately, injuries and illness rendered him sedentary during his last ten or so years and since he didn’t cut back on his overconsumption of food and drink, he soon packed on the pounds. As a result, the prevailing historical image many people have of him is of a bloated tyrant–much like how many people think of Elvis as an obese Vegas singer in a white jump suit–when, in fact, this was only true in the years before his death. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/83 "2016-02-07T01:28:28Z")
Updating this thread after a minor (8 year) delay: > [@](#): > > Henry VIII: ‘brain injury caused by jousting to blame for erratic behaviour and possible impotence’ > > He is one of the most controversial figures in European history, best remembered for executing two of his six wives and for breaking away from the Catholic Church in what became known as the Reformation. Now, a new study concluding that Henry VIII suffered brain damage caused by a jousting injury offers the strongest explanation of his erratic behaviour “short of miraculously finding his preserved brain in jar,” its lead author has claimed > > According to a team of US researchers led by Dr Arash Salardini, behavioural neurologist and co-director of the Yale Memory Clinic, the Tudor monarch may have suffered repeated traumatic brain injuries similar to those experienced by American Football players. This, researchers claim, would explain Henry’s explosive anger, headaches, insomnia, memory problems, inability to control impulses, and even impotence. > **[How jousting made a man of Henry VIII](https://www.historyextra.com/membership/how-jousting-made-a-man-of-henry-viii/)** > > Research suggests Henry VIII was angry, impulsive and even rendered impotent by a brain injury suffered while jousting. Here, Emma Levitt explores Henry's love of jousting and reveals how, denied the opportunity to prove his worth on the battlefield,... ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/84 "2016-02-07T21:08:54Z")
Interesting! Hadn’t thought of that. Jousters certainly took their share of knocks to the head. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/85 "2016-02-07T22:48:29Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The events of **400 years** previous were still a vivid memory? :dubious: I think the war of the roses was the actual event fresh in the memory of those living under henry the 8th. Henry’s killings were tame in comparison and at least you only had one king you could commit treason against. [Wars of the Roses - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/86 "2016-02-07T23:13:31Z")
The fellow killed a couple of his wives when he did not have to. That makes him a nutter in my books. You can quibble about which DSM IV/V category/ies, but the simple fact remains that any normal, decent human being would not have done what he had done. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/87 "2016-02-08T00:02:58Z")
Another possible explanation for Henry’s mental instability and leg pain in his later life, as well as his reproductive problems, could be that he was [Kell-positive](http://www.history.com/news/did-blood-cause-henry-viiis-madness-and-reproductive-woes). This would mean that, while a Kell-negative woman could carry one child by him successfully, in subsequent pregnancies there was a solid chance that her body would reject the baby, leading to late-term miscarriages or stillbirths. Three of his four healthy children were eldests for their mothers. Being Kell-positive can also cause a disorder that weakens muscles, causes cognitive problems and generally sets in during the 30s. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/88 "2016-02-08T00:06:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The fellow killed a couple of his wives when he did not have to. That makes him a nutter in my books. You can quibble about which DSM IV/V category/ies, but the simple fact remains that any normal, decent human being would not have done what he had done. And just was a decent normal person 400 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/89 "2016-02-08T00:08:16Z")
Repeated killing of wives was whacked 400 years ago as it is now. A decent, normal person then or now would not be a repeated wife killer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/90 "2016-02-08T01:47:44Z")
I’ve read that head trauma can lead to violent behavior later in life. I believe a lot of psychopaths have a history of head trauma. But even if you are not a psychopath, head trauma can lead to difficulty in controlling emotions and violence. Plus, it WAS a very violent time in England. Most people managed to lead peaceful lives, I bet, but it was more difficult for Henry VIII for the reasons enumerated earlier in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/91 "2016-02-08T03:03:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Repeated killing of wives was whacked 400 years ago as it is now. A decent, normal person **then** or now would not be a repeated wife killer. Bolding mine. Hardly. Adultery by a queen was considered treason, and was execution was the required punishment. I’m not saying Henry was a really nice guy, but Henry was a product of his time – judging him by the standards of our time defeats the purpose of learning. As far as Catherine not giving in – one thing to remember is that she was a deeply religious woman. To accept the anullment terms would be, to her, admitting that her marriage was a sham and that she had been living in sin for 20+ years of her life, and making her daughter a bastard. It was inconceivable to someone like her. She truely believed that Henry was wrong. (And too, it might have given her some small sense of satisfaction to stick it Henry for the way he was treating her.) **Nava** – I read a biography of Isabel I awhile ago – it went into Juana la Beltraneja. She was actually Isabel’s niece, not her cousin. She ended up marrying the King of Portugal (her uncle, actually), but that marriage was later anulled and she was forced to enter a convent. The whole issue surrounding her birth and conception is what lead Isabel to take over the throne. (Yes, I know it was an old post, but it’s still one of my favorite royal incidents in history) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/92 "2016-02-08T03:33:16Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The fellow killed a couple of his wives when he did not have to. That makes him a nutter in my books. You can quibble about which DSM IV/V category/ies, but the simple fact remains that any normal, decent human being would not have done what he had done. But he had to: they committed treason, which was punishable by death. Now Anne Boleyn was probably innocent, but as far as the legalities (such as they were) were concerned, she was guilty and Henry had no choice. To expand, a queen having an affair called into question the legitimacy of any children. That was treason. A king of the time had to put any traitors to death or be considered weak and a prime target for revolution. His response was perfectly rational (and required by law) for that time frame. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/93 "2016-02-08T03:33:33Z")
Even by the standards of the day, having Anne Boleyn executed shocked the other European courts. Later on, after the death of Jane Seymour, Henry went looking for a wife from the continent and one candidate told him, sorry, no can do, I only have one neck. I think Alison Weir in one of her books says for about a century afterwards most people thought Anne Boleyn was guilty. By the standards of the time she had a fair trial although we would call it a kangaroo court. But there was an alliance between the Spanish Ambassador de Chapuys and Thomas Cromwell to remove Anne. Also the things that attracted Henry to her: a brilliant mind and a sharp tongue. ``` Besides the fact that custom at the time dictated a male heir, Henry may have felt that God was punishing for 1) improperly marrying his brother's widow (there are competing biblical verses on whether that is a good thing or a sin) and 2) being seduced by Anne's witchcraft into marrying him...and two miscarriages after the successful birth of Elizabeth didn't help (Anne claimed that a jousting accident where Henry was unconscious for awhile caused one miscarriage). These people saw the hand of God in everything, and Henry had plenty of people in his family tree with lots of kids. Henry would looked at the birth of his bastard Henry Fitzroy by Bessie Blount and said "see! There is nothing wrong with me! It's the women I married, God has cursed them". He may have had children with Anne's sister Mary; the only thing we know for sure is he never acknowledged them as his own. ``` Possible Kell’s disease, head traumas, the paranoia of being a killed, real or imagined, being influenced by the last person he talked to. All combined into making Henry pretty nasty, especially as he aged. Henry’s father had to deal with one armed rebellion and two impostors claiming to be the rightful heir (one was executed, the other sent to work in his kitchen). When it comes to Catherine Howard, the real n9twit strikes be as being her uncle, Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk. Improper background investigation. Ultimately he escaped the executioner only by having Henry die first, his son wasn’t as lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/94 "2016-02-08T05:12:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Adultery by a queen was considered treason, and was execution was the required punishment. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > But he had to: they committed treason, which was punishable by death. Would both of you please provide cites – as in chapter and verse – to prove the assertion that adultery by a queen/consort of the king of England was punishable by death at the material times of the alleged commission of adultery by Anne and by Catherine. Anne was executed under The Treason Act of 1351, namely The Declaration what Offences shall be adjudged Treason, 25 Edw 3 St 5 c 2, but not on grounds of adultery. > **[Treason Act 1351](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_Act_1351)** > > The Treason Act 1351 (25 Edw. 3 Stat. 5. c. 2) is an Act of the Parliament of England wherethrough, according to William Blackstone, common law treason offences were enumerated and no new offences were, by statute, created. It is one of the earliest English statutes still in force, although it has been very significantly amended. It was extended to Ireland in 1495 and to Scotland in 1708. The Act was passed at Westminster in the Hilary term of 1351, in the 25th year of the reign of The Act is ... Political intrigue culminating in a kangaroo court was Anne’s downfall. Henry could easily have prevented or stopped the matter if he had wanted to, and in any event, it simply as not adultery for which she was executed. > **[Guilty or not guilty: why did Anne Boleyn have to die?](https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/why-did-anne-boleyn-have-to-die/)** > > Was she ensnared by a conspiracy, the victim of her own loose tongue, or simply guilty as charged? Suzannah Lipscomb tries to unearth the real reason why Henry VIII sent his second wife, Anne Boleyn, to the block You know, there is nothing to support the belief that Catherine’s last words were "I die a Queen, but I would rather die the wife of Culpeper. God have mercy on my soul. Good people, I beg you pray for me.” That is a rather romantic bit of translated prose by a foreigner written many years after the fact. > **[Chronicle of King Henry VIII. of England: Being a Contemporary Record of Some...](https://archive.org/details/chroniclekinghe00humegoog?view=theater)** > > Book digitized by Google and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. Regarding Catherine, although she was close – too close – to Culpeper, it is not conclusive that there was adultery, and Thomas Culpeper denied it vehemently, however, on the assumption that there was adultery, it still was not a capital offence when the alleged adultery occurred. Have a boo at the The Royal Assent by Commission Act 1541 (33 Hen 8 c 21) which was bill of attainder that was created to retroactively apply to Catherine Howard. Henry could easily have prevented such a bill from being made or coming into force if he had wanted to. [http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/did-katherine-howard-say-that-she-would-rather-die-the-wife-of-thomas-culpeper/](http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/did-katherine-howard-say-that-she-would-rather-die-the-wife-of-thomas-culpeper/) > **[Royal Assent by Commission Act 1541](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Assent_by_Commission_Act_1541)** > > The Royal Assent by Commission Act 1541 (33 Hen. 8. c. 21) was an Act of the Parliament of England, passed in 1542, which attainted Queen Catherine Howard for adultery, thereby authorising her execution.\[a\] It also provided that all of Queen Catherine's assets were to be forfeited to the Crown while also creating a new method in which royal assent could be granted to legislation. > Queen Catherine was to be convicted by bill of attainder, rather than by ordinary prosecution in a court of law. Ho... > **[Bill of attainder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder)** > > A bill of attainder (also known as an act of attainder, writ of attainder, or bill of pains and penalties) is an act of a legislature declaring a person, or a group of people, guilty of some crime, and providing for a punishment, often without a trial. As with attainder resulting from the normal judicial process, the effect of such a bill is to nullify the targeted person's civil rights, most notably the right to own property (and thus pass it on to heirs), the right to a title of nobility, and... Also read through the discussion on this page: [Tudor Q and A: Question from Marie - When did adultery of a Queen become treason](http://queryblog.tudorhistory.org/2009/07/question-from-marie-when-did-adultery.html) (BTW, I am a Culpeper. Thomas’ grandfather is my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather Sir John Culpeper of Bayhall, Hardreshull and Bedgebury, and Catherine’s great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather is my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather Sir Thomas Culpeper of Brenchley and Bayhall. If any of you happen to be female royalty and want to go for a spin, pm me.) ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/95 "2016-02-08T11:09:38Z")
A woman goes to a psychiatrist and says, “My husband thinks he’s Henry the Eighth. Should I be worried?” The psychiatrist says, “I don’t think you should be worried, unless he starts calling you Ann Boleyn”. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/96 "2016-02-08T19:06:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Would both of you please provide cites – as in chapter and verse – to prove the assertion that adultery by a queen/consort of the king of England was punishable by death at the material times of the alleged commission of adultery by Anne and by Catherine. > > Anne was executed under The Treason Act of 1351, namely The Declaration what Offences shall be adjudged Treason, 25 Edw 3 St 5 c 2, but not on grounds of adultery. > [Treason Act 1351 - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_Act_1351) According to your link certainly those who slept with the queen had committed treason as they had “violated the King’s companion”. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/97 "2016-02-08T19:24:26Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Even by the standards of the day, having Anne Boleyn executed shocked the other European courts. Later on, after the death of Jane Seymour, Henry went looking for a wife from the continent and one candidate told him, sorry, no can do, I only have one neck. There are two stories mentioned in Antonia Fraser’s biography of Henry VIII’s wives. One is Christina of Denmark, who when she learned that Henry was considering her, was reputed to have said: “If I had two heads, one should be at the King of England’s disposal.” The other is Mary of Guise, who is supposed to have joked when she heard that Henry was interested in her as a large woman, to match his own size, “I may be a big woman, but I have a little neck.” Mary married Henry’s nephew James V of Scotland soon afterwards and became mother of Mary Queen of Scots. I want to recommend Antonia Fraser’s book on the queens. Aside from some snark about Henry’s increasing weight in the later chapters, I preferred her writing to Weir’s. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/98 "2016-02-08T20:09:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, in order to usurp the throne, [Richard III] did disinherit his neices and nephews, possibly killed two of them (the Princes in the tower)… > [@Oy](#): > > OK, I don’t want to derail the thread, but let’s just say that the truth of these accusations is [arguable](http://www.richardiii.net/). > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, if you’d like to open a new thread to discuss it, we can. Here you go: [Did Richard III kill the Princes in the Tower? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=783525) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/99 "2016-02-11T19:40:08Z")
If it were _JUST_ the two wives I wouldn’t be as quick to judge him pathological, but the row of heads never ended. He was as remorseless and ruthless as Stalin when it came to executing people he’d broken bread with many times. People he at one point claimed to cherish who wound up on the block or were similarly disgraced: Katherine of Aragon- died in impoverished house arrest forbidden to see her daughter or even basic comforts because she would not yield to the annulment Anne Boleyn Katherine Howard Cardinal Wolsey (died before he could be tried for treason but almost certainly would have been executed or imprisoned) Thomas More Thomas Cromwell Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (survived beheading only because Henry died before signing the warrant- his son was beheaded) He was a dangerous man to befriend, almost reminding me of Augustus’s joke about Herod the Great that “Safer to be his pig than his son”. (Herod executed three of his sons and many other family members and in-laws, but since he couldn’t eat pork his pigs could expect to die a natural death.) ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488/100 "2016-02-14T03:24:59Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > If it were _JUST_ the two wives I wouldn’t be as quick to judge him pathological, but the row of heads never ended. He was as remorseless and ruthless as Stalin when it came to executing people he’d broken bread with many times. > > People he at one point claimed to cherish who wound up on the block or were similarly disgraced: > > Katherine of Aragon- died in impoverished house arrest forbidden to see her daughter or even basic comforts because she would not yield to the annulment > Anne Boleyn > Katherine Howard > Cardinal Wolsey (died before he could be tried for treason but almost certainly would have been executed or imprisoned) > Thomas More > Thomas Cromwell > Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (survived beheading only because Henry died before signing the warrant- his son was beheaded) > > He was a dangerous man to befriend, almost reminding me of Augustus’s joke about Herod the Great that “Safer to be his pig than his son”. (Herod executed three of his sons and many other family members and in-laws, but since he couldn’t eat pork his pigs could expect to die a natural death.) This is true and it damn near happened to his sixth wife Katharine Parr. She was able to get to him and convince him that she wasn’t lecturing him on religion but wanted to learn from him and distract him from his ulcerated leg. When the guards came upon them with Henry’s orders to arrest her, Henry told them to get lost. I suppose the two who ended well were Richard Rich (calling him a snake is an insult to real snakes) and Anne of Cleves, usually portrayed as ignorant about the birds and bees but able to live her life in comfort as “King’s Beloved Sister”. Anne later had some problems with Queen Mary but didn’t end up in the Tower of London. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/henry-viii-nice-guy-or-psychopath/452488.md?page=6)