# Herde Immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342 "2013-06-19T06:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/21 "2013-06-21T09:18:41Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > (\*I don’t consider bona fide religious objections to fall under the “anti-vaccination crowd”) I do, since there are vanishingly small numbers of mainstream religious theologies that advocate against vaccination. “Religious” objections have basically reverted to “philosophical” objections, which generally mean “I read something on Google and I don’t understand vaccines so I don’t want my child to have poisons injected into their bloodstream you pharma whore ghouls!” Because so few mainstream religions can claim a theological aversion to vaccinations, I support the removal of religious/philosophical exemptions for vaccinations for things like children attending public schools or day cares. Deluded vaccine denialist parents can homeschool their children, or educate them in enclaves of like-minded idiots. I do, however, support legitimate medical exemptions for vaccines. Which means that everyone else who can be vaccinated, should be. We don’t allow anti-science assholes to dictate policy about speed limits or car safety or other aspects of public safety, why should we allow them to do so with this issue? ---
**Author:** ![thicksantorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@thicksantorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thicksantorum)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/22 "2013-06-21T10:44:34Z")
Religious objections should _never_ trump public health, no matter how mainstream or obscure they are. Ideally, no one should ever be allowed to claim _any_ special privileges or exemptions for their religion. Too bad we don’t actually have separation of church and state… ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/23 "2013-06-21T18:11:02Z")
> [@thicksantorum](#): > > Religious objections should _never_ trump public health, no matter how mainstream or obscure they are. Ideally, no one should ever be allowed to claim _any_ special privileges or exemptions for their religion. Too bad we don’t actually have separation of church and state… I wanted to comment about this without derailing, so I started a [new thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16402496) in GD. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/24 "2013-06-22T17:22:43Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I do, since there are vanishingly small numbers of mainstream religious theologies that advocate against vaccination. > > “Religious” objections have basically reverted to “philosophical” objections, which generally mean “I read something on Google and I don’t understand vaccines so I don’t want my child to have poisons injected into their bloodstream you pharma whore ghouls!” This is a side topic I did not wish to encumber my original post with. Now that it is brought up, here it goes. “Vanishingly small” is still not “non-existent”. Those that abuse exemptions should be ashamed. Not all religious objections have to do with vaccination _per se_, but to the manufacture of particular vaccines. One major objection is the use of aborted fetal tissue lines as a medium to develop a weaken strain of the disease. If no alternative vaccine exists, then exemptions should be granted if requested. Protest by refusal encourages alternative vaccines to be developed. Some mechanism of conscientious objection must exist to resist steamrolling bureaucratic policies. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/25 "2013-06-22T17:26:29Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > This is a side topic. > > Vanishingly small is still not non-existent. Those that abuse exemptions should be ashamed. > > Not all religious objections have to do with vaccination _per se_, but to the manufacture of particular vaccines.\*\* One major objection is the use of aborted fetal tissue lines as a medium to develop a weaken strain of the disease.\*\* If no alternative vaccine exists, then exemptions should be granted if requested. Protest by refusal encourages alternative vaccines to be developed. [From here.](http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues.html) > [@](#): > > Varicella (chickenpox), rubella, hepatitis A, shingles and one preparation of rabies vaccine are all made in fetal embryo fibroblast cells. These cells were first obtained from elective termination of two pregnancies in the early 1960s. These same embryonic cells obtained from the early 1960s have continued to grow in the laboratory and are used to make vaccines today. No further sources of fetal cells are needed to make these vaccines. Fibroblast cells are the cells needed to hold skin and other connective tissue together. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/26 "2013-06-22T17:59:13Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > Not all religious objections have to do with vaccination _per se_, but to the manufacture of particular vaccines. One major objection is the use of aborted fetal tissue lines as a medium to develop a weaken strain of the disease. No major religion supports avoiding vaccines based on the fact that some vaccine production occurs in fetal cell lines developed decades ago. Even the Catholic Church, while it would like to see other means utilized in vaccine production, advises Catholics that [it is important to protect themselves (and their children) through vaccination](http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines): _“A recent report from the Pontifical Academy for Life at the Vatican encourages pharmaceutical companies to seek alternatives to the development of vaccines linked with human fetuses, given the Catholic Church’s objections to cooperating with abortion.11 The report also points out that in the absence of an alternative, these vaccines may be utilized “to avoid a serious risk not only for one’s own children but also, and more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole – especially for pregnant women.” The Vatican Academy also noted that “the parents who did not accept the vaccination of their own children become responsible for the malformations [due to rubella infection] in question.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/27 "2013-06-22T19:45:23Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > This is a side topic I did not wish to encumber my original post with. Now that it is brought up, here it goes. > > “Vanishingly small” is still not “non-existent”. Those that abuse exemptions should be ashamed. > > Not all religious objections have to do with vaccination _per se_, but to the manufacture of particular vaccines. One major objection is the use of aborted fetal tissue lines as a medium to develop a weaken strain of the disease. If no alternative vaccine exists, then exemptions should be granted if requested. Protest by refusal encourages alternative vaccines to be developed. > > Some mechanism of conscientious objection must exist to resist steamrolling bureaucratic policies. I respectfully but completely disagree. As others have pointed out, the Catholic Church has issued a directive regarding the use of fetal cell lines in vaccines, stating that vaccines are acceptable. Conscientious objection will have no effect on vaccine development. Therefore, no religious or philosophical exemptions to vaccines should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/28 "2013-06-23T00:09:32Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No major religion supports avoiding vaccines based on the fact that some vaccine production occurs in fetal cell lines developed decades ago. > > Even the Catholic Church, while it would like to see other means utilized in vaccine production, advises Catholics that [it is important to protect themselves (and their children) through vaccination](http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines): > > … I am well aware that the Catholic Church does not require its members to refrain from vaccinations derived from fetal cell lines. However, do members of this forum want both the Government AND the Catholic Church dictating their religious beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/29 "2013-06-23T06:48:15Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > I am well aware that the Catholic Church does not require its members to refrain from vaccinations derived from fetal cell lines. > > However, do members of this forum want both the Government AND the Catholic Church dictating their religious beliefs? Removing religious/philosophical exemptions would in no way involve the government dictating beliefs (even though, as has been stated, there are no mainstream theologies that advocate vaccine denialism and vaccine rejection). Removing those exemptions would involve restricting BEHAVIOR as it relates to public health. And people would still be free to place their children’s lives at risk by not vaccinating - they just wouldn’t be allowed to enroll those children in public schools. Again, the unvaccinated can homeschool or keep their unvaccinated children all together in private schools. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342/30 "2013-06-23T17:07:13Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > I am well aware that the Catholic Church does not require its members to refrain from vaccinations derived from fetal cell lines. It’s a stronger position than that - the impression left by that document is that the Church views vaccination as necessary even though it doesn’t like the technique instituted decades ago to grow some viral cultures for vaccine manufacture. While the quoted portion of that Church document notes that avoidance of rubella vaccine places the responsibility for ensuing rubella-related congenital malformations on the parents, an added fact is that rubella is also a cause of “spontaneous” abortions, an evil that the Church is probably well aware of. In any case, it is highly doubtful that more than a minute fraction of vaccine resisters are motivated by the existence of fetal cell cultures. Rather, it’s a ploy by antivaxers who have far different agendas, to try to suck anti-abortion people into their cause. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herde-immunity/661342.md?page=1)