# Here comes the Bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 13, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307 "2003-01-13T15:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/21 "2003-01-13T18:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > major candidates (gov, state assembly, congress, etc) kept, on average, around 95% of their campaing promises I’d buy that, **Neurotik** , but it needs to be in context. See, ISTM that number is so high for the same reason the Miss Cleo and John Edward charlatans get so many hits. To wit: make your promises vague enough and they’ll come true. It’s the big issues, the big promises, the _specific and definite_ promises that need to be addressed. Things like “I’ll remove the restrictions on homosexuals serving int he military,” and “Read my lips: no new taxes.” ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/22 "2003-01-13T18:49:01Z")
Evaluating the more-original BS: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Libertarian quoting Harry Browne, LP candidate, 2000_ > \*\*I want to get the federal government completely out of every area where it’s made such a mess — health care, education, law enforcement, welfare, foreign aid, corporate welfare, highway boondoggles, farm subsidies. Not only are these programs unconstitutional, they do tremendous damage to our lives. > \*\* Factual errors, yellow card. Foreign aid is part of Congress’s Constitutionally-delegated power to ratify treaties. Law enforcement and social services are necessary to keep the country running smoothly. Highways improve the movement of people, goods, and military (especially for defense or deployment). > [@](#): > > **I want to make the federal government so small you won’t pay any income tax. (The tariffs and excise taxes already being collected are enough to finance the constitutional functions of government.)** Assertion, yellow card. Taxes ought to be related to government size – but that’s not a requirement. Those taxes are going to be assesed on something; you want to go back to a capitation tax? (That’s a rate per person, eg. 3sp / adult, 2sp / child, 1sp / animal.) Plus, how much income tax was collected last year? How are you going to shrink the government THAT far without disrupting society and the economy? > [@](#): > > **I want to free you immediately and completely from the Social Security system. I want to sell off government assets to finance private retirement accounts for anyone now dependent on Social Security — so you and I and every other American can immediately stop paying the 15% Social Security tax.** Appeal, yellow card. What happens to people whose retirement accounts collapse? (Think Enron.) What assets are you going to sell? How do you plan to redeem the restricted bonds in the Social Security trust fund without triggering substantial inflation? And another factual error, yellow card: An employee pays half of the Social Security (FICA) tax, and the employer pays the other half. > [@](#): > > **I want to end the nightmare of Prohibition by stopping the insane War on Drugs. At least 90% of the invasions of your civil liberties over the last 30 years have been justified by the Drug War. You may have no interest in drugs, but the government still snoops in your bank account, monitors your email, and claims the power to search and seize your property without due process.** Effect-cause claim (_post hoc, ergo proctor hoc_, I think), yellow card. (I think we’re up to two red cards by now.) Prove the connection. Show that the gov’t is snooping everybody’s bank account and emails. > [@](#): > > **I want to restore completely your unconditional right to keep and bear any weapon necessary to defend yourself and your family. We can’t end gun violence with new laws or by enforcing the laws on the books now. The gun laws are the principal cause of gun violence, so we must repeal those laws.** Straw man argument. Red card! If you don’t like gun control, come right out and say so. > [@](#): > > \*\*I don’t want to appoint Supreme Court judges who are “strict constructionists” or who divine “original intent.” I want to appoint judges who can read the plain language of the Constitution — who understand that when the Constitution says “Congress shall make no law,” it means Congress shall make no law. I want judges who will strike down government programs that are not authorized by the Constitution. > \*\* Old issue. I have to call a yellow card for form. Judicial interpretation has been an issue since John Jay was Chief Justice… and all the way back to when the sage Hillel started school. “The law is given to Mankind, and not Mankind to the law.” (Adapted from Hillel.) Plus another yellow card for a factual error: The elastic clause has been used to permit gov’t programs not explicitly authorized. Or maybe Mr. Browne would prefer that ARPA hadn’t been allowed to create its experimental computer network, since the Constitution only authorized scientific patents, not funding of research? Or that freedom of speech, press, and assembly only apply in a physical setting and not online? I’ll grant **Lib** ’s point: The Lib Party has more original BS than the main parties; I don’t expect the main parties to suggest such radical positions. But bull is bull, whether Texan steak or Spanish fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/23 "2003-01-13T18:56:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Oh, and Jonathan, I’ve never seem more masterful irony. Thanks. 😉 \*\* Agh! It’s not that I don’t love you, Lib. You know I do… But I meant every single word of that. If the Libertarian Party wants to acheive significant power under the electoral system currently in place the approach I just outlined is the only one that will get them there. I realize there’s an element of ‘selling out’ to it but isn’t passing _part_ of the libertarian philosophy worth rolling around in the mud? Especially if it’s successful and could lead to further gains later? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/24 "2003-01-13T19:00:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*I’d buy that, **Neurotik** , but it needs to be in context. > > See, ISTM that number is so high for the same reason the Miss Cleo and John Edward charlatans get so many hits. To wit: make your promises vague enough and they’ll come true. > > It’s the big issues, the big promises, the _specific and definite_ promises that need to be addressed. Things like “I’ll remove the restrictions on homosexuals serving int he military,” and “Read my lips: no new taxes.” \*\* So are you claiming that pols regularly lie about specific promises? Or are you saying that just the specific promises should be studied? If it’s the former, I’ll call bullshit and ask you for a cite. If it’s the latter, then I’ll agree completely. Another problem, btw, is that many bills are so complex. For instance, a candidate may promise to do two different things, but a bill may come up that will require the candidate to prioritize and accept the lesser of two evils and fulfill the more important promise and break the lesser promise. Or in order to get his bill passed, he may have to agree to vote for another bill that he wouldnt normally have voted for. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/25 "2003-01-13T19:23:43Z")
After piddling around on Google for a half-hour or so, it seems like to me that Andros might be right. The promises themselves are the sort of blather that I ridiculed in the OP. For example, the The California Voter Foundation’s [Archive of Campaign Promises](http://www.calvoter.org/promises/) tracks three promises made by each candidate, and they go like this: > [@](#): > > Develop an inclusive administration to unite California’s diverse population > > Making college more affordable for working families and ensuring stable funding for U.C and C.S.U > > Reform California’s election system using innovative technology > > Continue to root out fraud and waste in state government > > Protect taxpayers’ dollars, investing prudently and managing efficiently > > Restore environmental, consumer protection, civil rights enforcement > > We need to implement an accountability system to ensure all students meet, or make progress towards, our new statewide standards I’d love to give you the objective evaluations for the above drivel, but guess what. The California Voter Foundation called upon the candidates to _evaluate themselves!_. And guess how they scored. No, really. Guess. That’s right! They did everything they promised and more! So… [ul] [li][California’s diverse population is now united](http://www.globalexchange.org/education/california/DayOfTheDead/articles/rca0900.html)[/li][li][Everyone in California can now afford college](http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/4546429.htm)[/li][li][California has no more punch card ballot systems](http://www.govtech.net/news/features/news_feature.phtml?docid=6167)[/li][li][California has rooted out fraud and waste](http://www.caltax.org/member/digest/Dec2002/12.2002.FraudWaste.04.htm)[/li][li][California is managing its investments prudently](http://www.pge.com/006_news/current_issues/energycrisis/index.shtml)[/li][li][California has restored environmental and civil rights protections](http://caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/2001/01-090.htm)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/26 "2003-01-13T19:26:30Z")
So do you have a cite that says they failed in what they did? While that site is defnintely self-selecting, it was meant to. They asked the candidates early on what their three top priorities were (not priorities, not specific promises) and then asked them several years later to make the case that they have made progress on those priorities. What the hell is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/27 "2003-01-13T19:39:10Z")
Neurotik wrote: > [@](#): > > So do you have a cite that says they failed in what they did? Is that some kind of joke? 😃 (Hint: those aren’t just plain underlines in the bullet points.) > [@](#): > > What the hell is your point? You didn’t get it the first time. Why should I say it again? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/28 "2003-01-13T19:42:36Z")
**Lib** -I don’t have much to say on the issue, but I did want to say that I **love** the title of this thread!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/29 "2003-01-13T20:22:00Z")
Oops, I thought you were linking to the site again, just to specific promises. After going through a few of your links, I see that they prove nothing. Let’s see, you link to an editorial that advocates increasing fees, but while increasing scholarships to poorer students. Proves nothing about whether students can afford to go to college. Plus, you completely ignore the California State University System (not the same thing as UC, about half the price) and the California Community College system. Your last link is a story about how the Attorney General is cracking down on hate crimes in the wake of increases post-9/11. Remind me how that disproves that the AG is restoring civil rights enforcement? Sounds like he’s enforcing it to me. We’ll give you half points for that. The next one that is bullshit is the reforming thing. He said that he will reform the system. He sent an order stating that all punch card balloting systems must be phased out by 2006. Sounds like a reform to me. He pushed for a bond act to fund the transition to new technology. Sounds like helping to achieve his priority to me. You’re being disingenuous, **Lib**. We’ll giive you another half point. The third one is the fraud and waste one. She promised to continue to root out fraud and waste. Which she has, AFAIK. So there is still fraud and waste in CA, big deal. Doesn’t change the fact that she has lived up to her campaign promise of continuing to root out fraud and waste, as she has rooted out $2 billion. Not shabby. No points there. Anyway, I don’t feel like spending much more time on this so I’ll summarize what I have. So we have 8 candidates with three promises each. That’s 24 total promises. You have cites “disproving” 6 of them. So we have a 75% success rate just going by your own research. But we already have shown that the college one is total bullshit. So now down to five. Shown the fraud and waste one is total bullshit as well, down to 4. So we’re up to 83%. Of course, that’s giving you full points for the ones I originally gave you half points for. Sorry, once again **Lib** you come up short. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/30 "2003-01-13T20:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Or are you saying that just the specific promises should be studied? I’m certainly saying that it’s the breaking of the specific promises that gets peoples’ hackles up. > [@](#): > > a candidate may promise to do two different things, but a bill may come up that will require the candidate to prioritize and accept the lesser of two evils and fulfill the more important promise and break the lesser promise. Or in order to get his bill passed, he may have to agree to vote for another bill that he wouldnt normally have voted for. Look, _I_ know that’s how it works, _you_ know that’s how it works . . . and _the candidates_ know that’s how it works. So why promise something that you _know_ you might not be able to act on? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/31 "2003-01-13T20:29:06Z")
Hey, I just picked some at random. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/32 "2003-01-13T20:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\ ***Lib** -I don’t have much to say on the issue, but I did want to say that I **love** the title of this thread!😃 \*\* Glad I brought you a smile, Meatros! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/33 "2003-01-13T21:25:38Z")
Today’s award for bullshit: _“We must rise above partisan politics and stand up for our values here at home, because family and faith and responsibility matter more than power and partisanship and privilege.”_ Courtesy of Joe Lieberman, candidate for Prez '04. I give it a 6.5 for incomplete alliteration (couldn’t he have come up with another f-word after “family and faith”? Freckles? Fries? Free beer?). I’m glad though that he is gonna stand up for my values. In fact, since I don’t have any I’m glad that there’s one Democrat who’ll invent some. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/34 "2003-01-13T21:27:40Z")
(Fidelity?) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/35 "2003-01-13T21:41:06Z")
_ **FIDELITY!!! YES!!!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/36 "2003-01-13T21:44:05Z")
Perfect, Andros! I guess gays, atheists, and slackers are just shit outta luck. (Of course, so are straights, theists, and hard workers once he gets elected.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/37 "2003-01-13T21:53:38Z")
I can have faith in that. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/38 "2003-01-13T23:32:32Z")
I agree with Jonathan Chance. I like the libertarians but they’re just going to have to simmer down if they want the general population to take them seriously. Baby steps libertarians, baby steps. And I never thought I would say this about _anyone_ but I think Joe Lieberman would be a worse president than George W. Bush :eek:. I will absolutely do everything in my power to relocate to another country if that vile excuse for a human being is elected to our highest office. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/39 "2003-01-13T23:54:34Z")
Libertarianism? Bah! The real changing force in America is found in the Radical Moderate Party, founded by [Doug Robarchek](http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/columnists/doug_robarchek/). Here is their [party platform for 2000](http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=ryl&itemid=18408) (I lost my paper copy and the Charlotte Observer archives don’t go back that far). ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307/40 "2003-01-14T01:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Perfect, Andros! I guess gays, atheists, and slackers are just shit outta luck. (Of course, so are straights, theists, and hard workers once he gets elected.) Bow to my sexuality! Make way for the Bisexual Empowerment/Equal Status Symposium! Together we’ll take congress! Well … okay, not the ugly ones;) [sub]Wouldn’t it be nice if there were a mainstream politician who didn’t try to appeal to one’s particular flavor of deity worship?[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-comes-the-bullshit/148307.md?page=3)