# Here is a Stick of Holly: Now whip me for my terrible spelling and grasp of grammer!

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [September 5, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790 "2003-09-05T18:44:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\
**Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/21 "2003-09-05T23:05:37Z")

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_wwhaaack thraaamp wwwwwhhhhhaaaaaaack_  
There you go **Phlosphr**. Um, why was I beating you for again?

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**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/22 "2003-09-06T02:13:34Z")

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Oh simple pleasures is all **Biggirl** , just simple pleasures.😉

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**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/23 "2003-09-06T02:13:34Z")

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Oh simple pleasures is all **Biggirl** , just simple pleasures.😉

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**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/24 "2003-09-06T11:41:20Z")

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_Whaack_ I feel your pain, I really do. I can’t spell or construct coherent sentences to save my life. Its why my supervisor frequenty asks if my text editor has a spell check!

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**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/25 "2003-09-06T12:45:13Z")

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I just have to know how the hell you grade papers. When I was teaching, that was an important part of the job. Writing as badly as you do, can you recognize other’s errors?

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**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/26 "2003-09-06T14:43:13Z")

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Weirddave can’t spell for shit. He used to call me in the middle of the night (when I was still two time zones away) and ask me how to spell things. I used to think it was endearing, now it’s just annoying.

He’s dysgraphic. Nothing we can do about it. [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) is his friend.

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**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/27 "2003-09-06T16:02:30Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by eunoia \*  
> \*\*[Bookmark this.](http://www.spellonline.com/)
> 
> From now on, we’ll assume all mistakes are made on purpose. \*\*

Not so useful. I typed in: “Its that girl over their!” It was corrected to: “Its that girl over their!”

(For all those spelling- and grammar-blind, it should have read “It’s that girl over there!”)

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**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/28 "2003-09-06T18:07:13Z")

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[Here](http://www.iespell.com/) is the best spell checker on the internet. It allows you to spell check message board posts by right clicking, and has a massive database of words. I’d be lost without it.

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**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/29 "2003-09-06T18:42:23Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Brynda \*  
> \*\*I just have to know how the hell you grade papers. When I was teaching, that was an important part of the job. Writing as badly as you do, can you recognize other’s errors? \*\*

Actually, I’d imagine that being a poor speller would make grading papers _easier_, at least if the primary subject of the class is not writing. Presumably **Phlosphr** grades psychology papers on content, not spelling. (Heck, I teach _freshman comp_ and I have to force myself not to focus on surface errors more than I should. They’re distracting, yes, but they don’t indicate much about the students’ ability to do research, analyze evidence, and think critically, which is the real meat of most college-level writing courses.)

Incidentally, one of the best freshman English instructors I have been privileged to observe, a guy who taught his students more about how to _think_ like a college writer in a week than most of us do in a semester, also happened to be an appalling speller.

I’m sure some people will think I should hand in my English degree for saying this, but IMO, spelling is a low-level skill that gets more attention than it deserves.

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**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/30 "2003-09-06T20:15:44Z")

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FWIW, it’s almost impossible to accurately proofread your own work unless you wait a significant period of time. You will just see what you meant, not what you wrote.

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**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/31 "2003-09-07T01:40:34Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> You will just see what you meant, not what you wrote.

An all too common problem in these parts. Joking aside, you are absolutely correct. Anything of professional importance that I put out there will be proofread by others. On a message board, or any informal setting, I just chalk up spelling/grammar/punctuation errors to a lack of a proofreader instead of a lack of knowledge. In most professional settings (Journals, Novels, Magazines, etc.) a proofreader is a crucial and invaluable part of any writing process. My mistakes are not my own. Rather, they are to be blamed on the cosmos for not giving me the proper resources to have a proofreader on my staff.

DaLovin’ Dj

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**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/32 "2003-09-07T10:46:39Z")

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**Phlosphr** , as one of those who castigated you, let me say how bad I feel about it, because, as I said, I enjoy what you have to say. It isn’t that important really - it just bugs me, perhaps way more than it should. I also kept my trap shut like a big coward until someone else mentioned it. So from being the self-styled **Apostrophe Nazi™** , I now feel myself to be the **Self-Loathing Apostrophe Nazi™**.

I leave you with this, though: plurals DO NOT take apostrophes. Verbs that end in the letter ‘S’ DO NOT take apostrophes. Apostrophes are for a) possession, and b) to indicate a missing letter (e.g. “don’t”). [More from me on the subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=185128)

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**Author:** ![pencilpusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d6d6ee/32.png) [@pencilpusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pencilpusher)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/33 "2003-09-07T12:02:17Z")

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I’ll beat you if you beat me… 😉

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**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/34 "2003-09-07T12:51:38Z")

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**Brynda** - I grade papers much the same way most instructors grade papers. I read them and if they are sticking to what I ask I grade them. I’m not an english instructor. Therefore you will never see these things in my grading - \>

Frag  
(sp)  
run-on  
para  
compound-word  
past  
future

And whatever else grammar and spelling gurus look for. I want to know if you have a good grasp of what I am teaching. I had a woman last semester who was a returning student. She was a wonderful writer and had probably the best handwriting I have encountered in a long while. However, she was not getting what I was saying in class. I was teaching personality at the time and we were covering Ethan Fromm and Carl Jung. The midterm was simple. Analyze Jung from **Fromms** perspective and vice versa…

Easy test if you know how the way Jung analyzes things and if you know the way Fromm analyzes things. My point is I could careless when grading papers if someone spells something wrong, I want to know that they understand the course material.

And **Jimm** - no worries. I enjoy reading your posts as well.

And **DJ** - you are an eloquent elocutionist when you want to be:)

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**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/35 "2003-09-07T13:26:26Z")

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**Fretful Porpentine** and **Phlosphr** , why do you believe that one cannot grade for both grammar/spelling _and_ content? Sure, minor spelling errors are one thing, but poor grammar can make it impossible to determine exactly what the person is trying to say. For example, from the OP:

“Recently I have been horribly abused through no fault of anyone really, and prompted from my generally dispicable spelling prowess, or lack there of.”

Huh? What on earth does the second half of this sentence mean? “Prompted from?” I repeat: Huh?

If the notion the two of you propose is common (and you a TA in English, FP, at the very place I got my Ph.D.), no wonder people who purportedly have an advanced education can’t write.

Oh, and **Phlosphr** , I was a psychology professor for 8 years, so I have some idea about the papers you might grade. My strategy was to mark the spelling and grammar errors first, then re-read it for content. Depending on the course, I might not take the grammar and spelling errors into account in determining the grade, but I sure as hell pointed them out and had the student correct them. Learning to write means both having something to say and knowing how to say it. If you don’t teach students both, you are failing them, IMHO.

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**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/36 "2003-09-07T14:16:38Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> I might not take the grammar and spelling errors into account in determining the grade, but I sure as hell pointed them out and had the student correct them. Learning to write means both having something to say and knowing how to say it. If you don’t teach students both, you are failing them, IMHO.

- I have never given a paper back after receiving the final draft and made a student correct it and resubmit it. My students have enough on their minds, they don’t need a surly psych prof to deal with as well.
- If you don’t teach students both you are failing them huh?  
So I am failing my abnormal psych class which consists mainly of juniors? Haven’t they had enough grammar lessons if they are a junior?
- If you’d like to agree to disagree that is fine. But the converse of your last statement happens to be my point here. I am here to teach all facets of psychology to students attending my classes. I do not want to waste time giving them a grammar lesson when I need to be teaching them how to calculate Chi Square! I do not know your teaching methods, but my methodology speaks for itself through my students grades.

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**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/37 "2003-09-07T15:44:14Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Fretful Porpentine and Phlosphr, why do you believe that one cannot grade for both grammar/spelling _and_ content?

I do. In my comp class, surface errors can lower a student’s grade by 1/3 of a grade level, e.g. from a B to a B-. The difficult part, however, is not letting them cloud my perception of the paper to the point where they lower the grade _more_ than that.

> [@](#):
>
> If the notion the two of you propose is common (and you a TA in English, FP, at the very place I got my Ph.D.), no wonder people who purportedly have an advanced education can’t write.

Define “can’t write.” To my mind, being able to write involves a great deal more than producing texts that are free of surface errors. “Correct” English will get you nowhere at the college level if you can’t identify your audience and modify your diction accordingly, formulate a complex argument, structure the paper so that your audience can follow your points, find and use appropriate supporting evidence, identify logical fallacies, and document your sources correctly. I’ve chosen\* to focus on these other skills precisely because they tend to be the ones that high school teachers and the students themselves neglect. Most college freshmen tend to think of “good writing” in terms of proper grammar and spelling. If they are asked to critique a paper without further instruction, nearly all of their attention will be spent on correctness rather than organization or content. It’s my job to get them to think about facets of their writing that they are _not_ used to considering important.

\*Actually, the choice isn’t altogether mine – UNC’s writing program officially de-emphasizes grammar instruction because research suggests that it doesn’t improve students’ writing – but I happen to agree with the party line on this issue (and believe me, that doesn’t happen often). If you feel like writing any angry letters to the Alumni Association about this, let me know how it goes 🙂

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**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/38 "2003-09-07T16:36:06Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \*  
> \*\*- I have never given a paper back after receiving the final draft and made a student correct it and resubmit it. My students have enough on their minds, they don’t need a surly psych prof to deal with as well.
> 
> - If you don’t teach students both you are failing them huh?  
> So I am failing my abnormal psych class which consists mainly of juniors? Haven’t they had enough grammar lessons if they are a junior?
> - If you’d like to agree to disagree that is fine. But the converse of your last statement happens to be my point here. I am here to teach all facets of psychology to students attending my classes. I do not want to waste time giving them a grammar lesson when I need to be teaching them how to calculate Chi Square! I do not know your teaching methods, but my methodology speaks for itself through my students grades. \*\*

1. I mananged to have require that students write well (considering both content and grammar) without surliness. YMMV, of course. I do not know your teaching methods, but the teaching awards I won speak for themselves.

2. I disagree that undergraduate juniors have had enough grammer lessons. If they are making errors, they clearly have not learned enough. Yes, you are teaching content, but if you are grading papers (not exams), you need to help them correct their errors, IMHO. Mere years of education do not ensure knowing how to write, as is obvious from this very thread.

3. Since you determine your students’ grades, that logic is a bit circular. As you know, students’ grades are a function of what they learn _and_ the grading system used. If you are an easy grader, your students seem to do well. A better measure would be the percentage who are accepted to reputable graduate schools. At least at the schools I attended and to which my undergradates were accepted, a good grasp of writing was required.

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**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/39 "2003-09-07T16:52:09Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \*  
> \*\*I do. In my comp class, surface errors can lower a student’s grade by 1/3 of a grade level, e.g. from a B to a B-. The difficult part, however, is not letting them cloud my perception of the paper to the point where they lower the grade _more_ than that.
> 
> Define “can’t write.” To my mind, being able to write involves a great deal more than producing texts that are free of surface errors. “Correct” English will get you nowhere at the college level if you can’t identify your audience and modify your diction accordingly, formulate a complex argument, structure the paper so that your audience can follow your points, find and use appropriate supporting evidence, identify logical fallacies, and document your sources correctly. I’ve chosen\* to focus on these other skills precisely because they tend to be the ones that high school teachers and the students themselves neglect. Most college freshmen tend to think of “good writing” in terms of proper grammar and spelling. If they are asked to critique a paper without further instruction, nearly all of their attention will be spent on correctness rather than organization or content. It’s my job to get them to think about facets of their writing that they are _not_ used to considering important.
> 
> \*Actually, the choice isn’t altogether mine – UNC’s writing program officially de-emphasizes grammar instruction because research suggests that it doesn’t improve students’ writing – but I happen to agree with the party line on this issue (and believe me, that doesn’t happen often). If you feel like writing any angry letters to the Alumni Association about this, let me know how it goes 🙂 \*\*

Ah, **Fretful Porpentine** , you and I don’t disagree as much as may appear on the surface. You _do_ mark errors in grammar and spelling and the errors do affect the grade. That’s all I am advocating. I certainly also agree with you that good writing is more than correct grammar and spelling. I just believe that it has to start there; if something is so poorly written that the content can’t be deciphered, then how do you assess the organization of the paper, logical fallacies, et cetera? **Phlophr** seems to be proposing that college professors should just ignore anything but content, which I think is wrong. First of all, I don’t see how you can decipher content in a badly written paper (again, I am not talking about spelling errors alone, but the type of error I pointed out above from the OP), and secondly, I think it is everyone’s responsibility. If students are only learning to write in English composition classes, no wonder they can’t write. I am interested in the research you mentioned. If grammar classes don’t help, what does?

And I am not writing the Alumni Association anything. They will just ask for money. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/here-is-a-stick-of-holly-now-whip-me-for-my-terrible-spelling-and-grasp-of-grammer/199790/40 "2003-09-07T17:18:30Z")

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Hee hee.

**Phlosphr** grasps his grammer.

Dirty little boy.

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