# Hereditary Nobility: How Low CAn You Go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044 "2014-08-07T16:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/21 "2014-08-08T02:13:45Z")
A title never, in itself, conferred either a right to income or a right to property. But, if the king was granting you a title to thank you for some conspicuous service to the nation or to himself (winning a battle, acknowledging as your own the king’s bastard child, that kind of thing) he might _also_ grant you land or other valuable rights that were at his disposal. That practice pretty much died out by the eighteenth century. Thereafter it was usually the case that titles of nobility were only given to people who were already wealthy, and had land. (In fact, this has been the norm even before; even when the king granted property along with a title, the grantees were usually people who were already not short of a few sandwiches.) Titled families traditionally attempted to conserve their wealth and ensure that it passed with the title (hence the stereotype of the near-penniless “younger son” from an enormously wealthy family). Inevitably, though, over the years many of them have seen their wealth decline whether through bad luck, bad judgment, division between numerous heirs, taxation or some combination of these. Consequently there are many peers who live, in material terms, quite ordinary lives. For example, the 18th Earl of Lincoln was born in Melbourne in 1913. His father was a sailor in the British merchant navy. He had a relatively privileged education at an independent boarding school in Western Australia, but thereafter worked as a boilermaker, a welder’s assistant and a butcher at a mining camp. He was 76 before he inherited the title from a distant cousin; he had known for many years that he was in line as a possible heir, but had forgotten about it. No money or property came with the title. Jtur88 suggests, in post #12, that people in this situation might have “just stopped passing the hereditary entitlement down anymore”. In fact, this isn’t an option. If you are the 11th Earl of Littleshit, then your heir is _entitled_ to be the 12th Earl of Littleshit on your death; there is nothing you can do to “stop passing the hereditary entitlement down”; that’s pretty much what “hereditary entitlement” means. But your heir can decide not to use the title, and continue to call himself Joe Bloggs even though he is, in law, the Earl of Littleshit (and in fact this is quite common). And, since 1963, your heir has been free to formally disclaim the title, in which case he _isn’t_ the Earl of Littleshit. But even that won’t stop the title passing down; _his_ heir will be the 13th Earl, unless he, too, decides to disclaim. Disclaimer is rare; only a few people have formally disclaimed their peerages, and in most or all cases this was done to allow them to sit as members of the House of Commons. Since peers are no longer excluded from the House of Commons the principal reason for disclaiming no longer applies, and in fact nobody has disclaimed a peerage since 2002. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/22 "2014-08-08T02:29:09Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > (In fact, this has been the norm even before; even when the king granted property along with a title, the grantees were usually people who were already not short of a few sandwiches.) Certainly not the Earl of Sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/23 "2014-08-08T02:48:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And, since 1963, your heir has been free to formally disclaim the title, in which case he _isn’t_ the Earl of Littleshit. But even that won’t stop the title passing down; _his_ heir will be the 13th Earl, unless he, too, decides to disclaim. So, in the hypothetical case where you have a peerage, disclaim it, and have no heirs, does the peerage disappear, revert to the crown, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/24 "2014-08-08T02:54:10Z")
Sebastian Browne, the 12th Marquess of Sligo, is a real estate agent in suburban Sydney. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/25 "2014-08-08T02:59:54Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > [Here’s a recent story](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/nyregion/princess-fights-leaks-and-an-eviction-notice-in-manhattan.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1) about an Ottoman princess about to be kicked out of her NYC apartment by a developer who bought the building. [Bayezid Osman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_Osman), heir to the Ottoman House of Osman, worked as a librarian in NYC. > > [Karl von Habsburg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg) was a game show host. I don’t think the OP’s getting at disposessed nobility from places that no longer have official noble titles, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/26 "2014-08-08T03:06:26Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Certainly not the Earl of Sandwich. I was going to say the opposite. The 4th Earl of Sandwich was, apparently, severely lacking in sandwiches at the time he inherited his title. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/27 "2014-08-08T03:08:27Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > So, in the hypothetical case where you have a peerage, disclaim it, and have no heirs, does the peerage disappear, revert to the crown, or something else? On the failure of heirs, a peerage becomes extinct. (This is so regardless of whether there has been any disclaimer along the way or not.) A new peerage with a similar or identical title may or may not be created again in the future, for a member of the same family or for someone completely unconnected with that family. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/28 "2014-08-08T03:45:15Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > A title never, in itself, conferred either a right to income or a right to property. Well…maybe better to say a title _often_ didn’t grant a right to income or property. This becomes more true the further forward in history you go. However as you dig backwards in time titles sometimes did come with at least attached income rights. Often this came in a share of tax income collected as with the “third penny” collected by Anglo-Saxon and later Norman earls in the shires over which they had technical title. Said earl may have owned little or no actual property in the shire to which they held title ( at least in the post-Norman period ), but they still received that recompense. This was potentially substantial in Anglo-Saxon times when earls were more the equivalent of continental dukes ( and were so called in Latin ), typically held multiple shires and could claim a third of all collected revenue from them. But increasingly marginal in Norman and later periods when it became first a third of justice fees collected for a single shire and then just a small set fee. But it is certainly correct that title did not _necessarily_ align with wealth or property. Before he became king Stephen of Blois was probably the wealthiest landed magnate in England after king Henry I. But his comital title was in Normandy. He held no earldoms - his English lands were all associated with the various English “honours” ( collections of estates ) he had been granted or had otherwise acquired - Eye and Lancaster granted directly from the king, Boulogne ( named for the French county ) through his wife. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/29 "2014-08-08T06:36:55Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > [[Karl von Habsburg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg) was a game show host. [The 5th Baron Haden-Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Guest) is a no-name actor. ---
**Author:** ![scruffycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scruffycat/32/200_2.png) [@scruffycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scruffycat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/30 "2014-08-08T07:03:38Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Earl of Wharncliffe? Yes, that’s the fella. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/31 "2014-08-08T07:05:58Z")
The 12th Duke of Manchester was imprisoned in the USA and Australia… Worse, he married an Australian lady./ After preparatory school in Wales, he was educated at Gordonstoun School. Thereafter followed three years in the Royal Marines. He had occupations in the oil industry and in tourist-related activities, and was variously engaged as a clothes salesman, a barman, and a “crocodile wrestler”, and died in 2002. His son, potentially the 13th , has not successfully claimed his right to be registered on the Roll, so by British law is not yet Duke… There is a reason, he is also of criminal record and so his application may be refused … Better to not apply now and be able to say he was eligible to apply… perhaps apply in his old age if he feels he might have redeemed himself somehow. See [Dukes of Manchester: Fraudsters, drug addicts and jailbirds shaming the aristocracy | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017091/Dukes-Manchester-Fraudsters-drug-addicts-jailbirds-shaming-aristocracy.html) You can of course find lists of these people …For example, [Australian peers and baronets - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_peers_and_baronets) but first cab off the rank was the best example … the highest level of nobility short of Royality and he’s been in jail 3 times. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/32 "2014-08-08T08:05:44Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The 12th Duke of Manchester was imprisoned in the USA and Australia… Worse, he married an Australian lady./ After preparatory school in Wales, he was educated at Gordonstoun School. Thereafter followed three years in the Royal Marines. He had occupations in the oil industry and in tourist-related activities, and was variously engaged as a clothes salesman, a barman, and a “crocodile wrestler”, and died in 2002. > > His son, potentially the 13th , has not successfully claimed his right to be registered on the Roll, so by British law is not yet Duke… There is a reason, he is also of criminal record and so his application may be refused … Better to not apply now and be able to say he was eligible to apply… perhaps apply in his old age if he feels he might have redeemed himself somehow. Nitpick; he is the Duke, and has been since the death of his father in 2002. The Roll of the Peerage was only introduced in 2004; succession to the title is not dependent on having your name on the Roll. In fact, it works the other way around; the only way to get your name on the Roll is to prove that you are the Duke, having succeeded on the death of the previous Duke. And all you have to prove is that you _have_ succeeded - i.e. that the previous holder is dead, and that you are his heir. You just set out the genealogical basis for your claim, backed up by the relevant birth certificates, death certificates, etc. There is no basis for refusing an application because you have a criminal record, or because they dislike you for any other reason. Unless there is some doubt as to his legitimacy, or some question of there being a long-lost older brother or something of the kind, if the present Duke applies he will be enrolled. If he hasn’t applied it’s presumably because he doesn’t feel the need to; he has no particular desire for formal predence or offical recognition, and he doesn’t care to take the time, and pay the costs, involved in an application for registration. He was born in Australia and lives in the US, so his official status in the UK probably isn’t a matter of great moment to him. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/33 "2014-08-08T09:34:09Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > [The 5th Baron Haden-Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Guest) is a no-name actor. I am ashamed I never noticed before that he is, but given his Corky in Waiting for Guffman, this just BLOWS MY MIND. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/34 "2014-08-08T11:58:17Z")
autoquote is screwing up on me today … > [@](#): > > ``` > [bob++](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?u=144080) > > ``` > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/statusicon/user\_offline.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif) > > Guest > Join Date: Jan 2013 > > ``` > Quote: > Originally Posted by **jtur88** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17618617#post17618617) > I'm imagining that there are many, many more such people several generations removed from lords who went broke, and just stopped passing the hereditary entitlement down anymore -- although technically could have, but the exercise would have been pointless and possibly exposing their descendants to undeserved ridicule. > > ``` > > Literature is full of aristocrats who gambled away or otherwise lost their wealth, but how many real life cases would be conjectural. > > In the UK we have this nasty little tax known as ‘death duty’ - properly, Inheritance Tax. If your estate (everything you own wherever it is) is worth (currently) £350,000 you have to hand over 40% of everything over that. > > Since many of these grand families either did not make proper provision, or for other reasons (like losing several generations in WW1 and WW2) they lost their houses and their land. Of course there were the drunks and gamblers too which didn’t help, but all in all, it is only the clever ones that managed to keep things going. > > Anyone who watched Downton Abbey will be aware of the problems they had because of Inheritance Tax. I have been bingereading Agatha Christie novels for the past week. Amazing changes from the beginning to the end of the Poirot career [first book job is 1916, last is roughly 1966] and you can definitely see the errosion from the post ww1 lifestyles of the titled and luxury class, living in stately homes and luxurious town houses in London to small cottages, renting out the stately home and living in a gate house, to living in flats. A fair number of the cases did involve grubbing for money and screwing around with wills, and at least 4 or 5 of the books and short stories did deal with various inheritance tax issues. And is it my imagination, or did much of the upper middle class seem to exist on some sort of annuities, allowances from parents and other relatives and stock payouts rather than actual jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/35 "2014-08-08T13:12:16Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Inevitably, though, over the years many of them have seen their wealth decline whether through bad luck, bad judgment, division between numerous heirs, taxation or some combination of these. Consequently there are many peers who live, in material terms, quite ordinary lives. It’s a bit simpler than that. The growth of agriculture in the US basically killed off the English tenant farming system in the 19th century. Between that, and the urbanization that accompanied the Industrial Revolution, landowners’ major income sources dried up. The lucky ones were those had the foresight to invest in things other than land holdings - or held land that had non-arable value like mineral deposits. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/36 "2014-08-08T13:20:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The lucky ones were those had the foresight to invest in things other than land holdings - or held land that had non-arable value like mineral deposits. Or land that subsequently became the centre of populous cities e.g. the Duke of Westminster. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/37 "2014-08-08T13:25:06Z")
I would say at the broader level the two most important factors were 1) regression to the mean and 2) the loss of economic and hence political power that accompanied industrialization and urbanization. 1. These people got their hereditary titles by inheritance from some ancestors who had some extraordinary combination of talent and luck. These things don’t persist through the generations, and after a while you get some descendants who are mediocre or worse, and find it hard to keep up. 2. Even if the class had kept the same personal qualities, it’s inevitable that the industrialists and merchant class would seize some power for themselves, and this would weaken the abilities of the aristocracy to shield their privileges, or to acquire new ones. That’s the big picture, IMO. Everything else is details. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/38 "2014-08-08T13:25:20Z")
The Duchy of Westminster didn’t exist until 1874. Not sure what came with the seat, though. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/39 "2014-08-08T15:37:04Z")
It’s difficult to beat the opening paragraph of [the _Telegraph_’s obituary of 3rd Lord Moyniham](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/6604750/Lord-Moynihan.html). > [@](#): > > His chief occupations were bongo-drummer, confidence trickster, brothel-keeper, drug-smuggler and police informer, but ‘Tony’ Moynihan also claimed other areas of expertise - as ‘professional negotiator’, ‘international diplomatic courier’, ‘currency manipulator’ and ‘authority on rock and roll’. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044/40 "2014-08-08T17:23:56Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > [The 5th Baron Haden-Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Guest) is a no-name actor. And of course, [Lady Haden-Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Lee_Curtis) is currently doing commercials for yoghurt that helps your digestive regularity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hereditary-nobility-how-low-can-you-go/695044.md?page=3)