# Here's a beaut: More votes for Bush than voters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178 "2004-11-05T14:12:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/41 "2004-11-05T23:41:30Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I just want to add something about our backward state. We use optical scanners You fill out your ballot, put it in the machine, and it tells you immediately if the ballot was counted. While standing in line an elderly woman inserted hers and the machine gave a loud beep. The (really hot) election aide manning the machine explained the error was showing the lady voted for 2 presidents. What happened was she voted for Kerry then filled in the write-in circle to write John Edwards. (In Northe Dakota, voting for the presidential candidate by default adds a vote for his chosen running mate. We’re renegades) > > Anyway, hot chick showed her which button to press to get the ballot back, then had her put it in a shredder over a mesh basket to show it was destroyed. The woman looked distraught that she wasted her chance and the hot chick told her she had up to 3 ballots to get it done. (Hell, if someone needs 4 tries do you want them deciding your representatives?) > > We not only have historically one of the highest consistant turnouts, but even elections decided by fewer than 50 votes have rarely been contested. Works for us, even if we are all idiots. 😉 Yup, that’s what we’ve got here in backwards Okieland, too. It works tremendously well - the ballots are easy to read and comprehend (even when I first started voting, right after this system was implemented), immediate confirmation of your vote being tabulated, automatic check for mismarked ballots. I truly, truly do not understand why more states don’t use this method. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/42 "2004-11-05T23:51:44Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know if you noticed, but we’re discussing that right now. Yeah well your comment implied we’re just trying to dig up examples of voter fraud that benefit Kerry. If I misinterpreted, my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/43 "2004-11-06T01:08:14Z")
[CNN has an AP story about this now, too.](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html) As for this: > [@duffer](#): > > Hmm… over 140 million votes cast and you honestly think there is any possible way to get it exact to each vote? Numbers that big are going to have some flaws. It’s built into the system and affects both sides. How many banking ATMs do we have in this country? If we took that kind of attitude with _those_ electonic counting machines, any bank using them would go bankrupt. As far as electronic voting goes, _it is perfectly possible to account for each and every vote perfectly_. I am so tired of hearing this “but there’s so many” excuse. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/44 "2004-11-06T01:25:48Z")
Hmmm. Maybe it’s just that Bush has overwhelming support from the deceased? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/45 "2004-11-06T01:28:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Hmmm. Maybe it’s just that Bush has overwhelming support from the deceased? You know, now that you mention it… wasn’t the polling place for this precinct built on top of some kind of ancient burial grounds…? 😛 LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/46 "2004-11-06T02:19:55Z")
> [@Loopus](#): > > I don’t know. It seems to me that if an election is close enough to literally be decided by something like less than 0.1% of the voters, it doesn’t really matter enough who wins to go to all the trouble to count every vote exactly and correctly. If it’s a practical toss-up, let the flawed system just pick one. It really won’t matter much. So much for “every vote counts.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/47 "2004-11-06T03:23:13Z")
“Every vote counts” does not mean you have to count every vote to determine a winner. If you have mechanically processed ballots, you run them through the machine. The machine will tell you how many ballots there are, what it’s current vote totals are, and how many ballots it could not read (hanging chads and all that). If the margin seperating the candidates is larger than the remaining number of ballots/uncounted votes + the margin of error… it’s not necessary to count the remaining votes to declare a winner. It’s merely a matter of formality to count the remaining votes. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/48 "2004-11-06T08:53:12Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Hmm… over 140 million votes cast and you honestly think there is any possible way to get it exact to each vote? Numbers that big are going to have some flaws. It’s built into the system and affects both sides. Banks move that many dollar bills around fairly easy with very little loss, I honestly don’t see how counting paper is that hard. Granted the people filling out the paper have to fill it out properly, but considering it is, it should be VERY easy to count. I think the problem is the timeline. Oregon has mail in votes and people have two weeks to fill them out. That seems to work fairly well. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/49 "2004-11-06T09:32:51Z")
> [@Seven](#): > > I think the problem is the timeline. Oregon has mail in votes and people have two weeks to fill them out. That seems to work fairly well. Yeah, I just learned this year that OR does mail only. I have 2 questions about it. 1. When did OR start doing this? 2. How do they prevent fraud? Like what how would they prevent someone from stealing a ballot from someone’s mailbox and sending it in? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/50 "2004-11-06T09:41:35Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > So much for “every vote counts.” :rolleyes: You mean you acually believed that nonsense? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/51 "2004-11-06T15:16:05Z")
> [@Seven](#): > > Banks move that many dollar bills around fairly easy with very little loss, I honestly don’t see how counting paper is that hard. Actual currency transactions (with tellers having to count out bills) account for a nearly insignificant portion of a bank’s total transactions. And with currency transactions, human error does still creep in. I’m not convinced one way or another whether or not polling is less accurate than currency transactions. Still in all, if you think about it, banks and polling sites have different goals. For a bank, extra resources spent on accuracy is pretty much worth it (to a point), as they are in the business of making money – and handling money accurately helps their bottom line. Polling sites have no such impetus – the goal is to determine a winner. Look at **1010011010’s** post again and boil down his message: perfect polling is virtually never necessary to determine a winner in an election. Due to the actual goal of the election (to determine a winner), there is definitely an allowable margin of error – and I think this margin is considered when election commissioners and state legislatures work to determine the methods a given state will use to count votes. **Blalron** – you’re right. The reality is that not every vote is counted. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178/52 "2004-11-06T15:31:54Z")
“It’s not who votes that counts, it’s who counts the votes.” - _Stalin (apocryphal)_ In all serious, it would not surprise me that to find that tremendous errors exist - some due to good old fashioned incompetence, some due to fraud. Since I have no plans to look into it myself, I have to trust that the loosing party has determined that these errors were not large enough to cost the election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-beaut-more-votes-for-bush-than-voters/273178.md?page=2)