# Here's a little something for those who think George Lucas is a revisionist **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739 "2002-06-12T22:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![maikai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@maikai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maikai)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/1 "2002-06-12T22:37:39Z")
I was reading an article in a _Starlog_ magazine _Star Wars_ special and it had an excerpt from a Lucas interview from 1987. In it he said the the original trilogy was about Vader’s rehabilitation all along. This doesn’t neccessarily mean that it was about Vader from the time of EIV, but at least the idea existed about a decade before the prequels. BTW, I never had a problem with it being Anakin’s story. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Daniel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Daniel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daniel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/2 "2002-06-13T04:43:02Z")
yeah. Still, I thought the original movies made that pretty clear on their own . . . ---
**Author:** ![maikai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@maikai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maikai)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/3 "2002-06-13T04:52:57Z")
I agree that the movies made it clear. It’s just that some people cracked some jokes about Lucas changing his mind and the sensitive fanboy in me got upset. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/4 "2002-06-13T05:24:33Z")
It seems clear to me that Lucas did a lot of revising following the success of Star Wars. Empire and Jedi seem to me to be as much about Luke’s acension as a great Jedi as it is Vader’s redemption, with the climax of Jedi bringing the two story threads together. But, regardless of what Lucas may have said later, I cannot see Star Wars as anything other than Luke’s story. Still, it is Lucas’ story to revise if he wants. I also don’t accept the idea that Vader is redeemed at the end. He’s been responsible for the deaths of millions or billions, and he’s redeemed by saving the life of his own son? Not by my way of thinking. Yes, I know he gets to do the blue ghost thing, which indicates that he’s been accepted back to the light side of the force, but I simply cannot accept that defending your family for a few moments before your death offsets decades of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/5 "2002-06-13T05:40:44Z")
**Number Six** , I’m sure Lucas is sorry if the idea of salvation and people changing their ways disgusts you. ---
**Author:** ![maikai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@maikai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maikai)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/6 "2002-06-13T05:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree that the movies made it clear. You know, I posted this, but after thinking about it, I realize that I see it as Anakin’s story only after all the talk about it _being_ Anakin’s story. This > [@](#): > > Empire and Jedi seem to me to be as much about Luke’s acension as a great Jedi is actually what the OT is for me as well. I didn’t fully think my post through. (I was just excited about my first thread! > [@](#): > > I also don’t accept the idea that Vader is redeemed at the end. He’s been responsible for the deaths of millions or billions, and he’s redeemed by saving the life of his own son? Not by my way of thinking. Yes, I know he gets to do the blue ghost thing, which indicates that he’s been accepted back to the light side of the force, but I simply cannot accept that defending your family for a few moments before your death offsets decades of evil. Redemption isn’t the right word. I think that it’s just that you are free of “evil’s grip.” You’re still accountable for your actions. I suppose one of the problems is simply where the movie ended. If it went on (and Anakin was still alive) I think there would have been a war crimes trial to solve the ethical dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/7 "2002-06-13T06:06:20Z")
I don’t read _TV Guide_, but apparently it concocts ridiculously terse synopses of certain shows listed. I heard second-hand that one such entry read: **Star Wars Trilogy** —Vader is redeemed. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/8 "2002-06-13T06:45:32Z")
FWIW, I’m a sucker for redemption stories. But when I saw ROTJ, that particular button of mine wasn’t pushed. YMprobablyVaries. Seems to me that you can be evil and still look out for your offspring. Darth-Vadar-in-the-golden-glow looked like a tacked-on happy ending, when I saw it. Though I suspect that when ROTJ was made, Lucas may have anticipated that Eps 1-3 would be the Vadar chronicals. (Is there a better alternative?) Star Wars, of course, was made in 1977. I think it’s fair to say that neither it nor Empire (1980) laid out Vadar’s redemption that well, notwithstanding what Lucas may have said in 1987. In other words, Vadar’s redemption came in ROTJ (1983). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/9 "2002-06-13T13:16:41Z")
What movie are you watching flowbark? SW didn’t really o into it, but then, it didn’t need to. Vader = Evil. But in ESB we get to see his attempts to, well, be close to his son (awwwww… Dark Side parental bonding 🙂 ) And the ending where he his just looking out into spoace as the Millenium Falcon zips away, and then doesn’t kill anyone just made me think something broke inside - and it wasn’t his pacemaker. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/10 "2002-06-13T16:10:50Z")
The subtle expression on his face gives it away. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/11 "2002-06-14T04:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Redemption isn’t the right word. I think that it’s just that you are free of “evil’s grip.” You’re still accountable for your actions. That makes sense. **Eternal** : I think you need to reread my post, carefully this time, and see if you can find any disgust or rejection of the idea of redemption. Neither the tone nor the idea you ascribe to me are present in what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/12 "2002-06-14T06:02:54Z")
**Smiling bandit** : I saw ESB a long time ago. IIRC, Vadar says, “In your heart, you know [I’m your father]”, as the Mill. Falcon speeds away. My response: Oh, I get it. This establishes that Vadar wasn’t just toying with Luke when he claimed paternity. (Though, prior to ROTJ, many speculated that Vadar was simply mind-f\*\*king with Luke, notwithstanding the aforementioned scene.) :Lifts gloved fist: “We will bring order to the universe and rule it as father and son!!!” [another paraphrase] That’s not “parental bonding”. That’s “establishing a dynasty”. I guess a do recall (a little) Vadar holding back on the firepower near the end. The parental aspect did register with me, somewhat. But again, I shrugged it off: feelings towards your kid don’t strike me as either moral accomplishment or even exceptional beneficience. And remember, prior to ROTJ the viewer would be debating if the bad guy _really_ was Luke’s father. After all, Luke was the protagonist of Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/13 "2002-06-14T13:53:43Z")
The redemption of the father or at least the family name is one of common ‘hero myth’ themes that Lucas threw into the original films. It is a common plot device in mythology. You know like Maverick in Top Gun. ---
**Author:** ![Morgainelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Morgainelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgainelf)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/14 "2002-06-14T18:37:20Z")
I thought I read a long time ago that the whole story is actually the story of the 'droids. I wish I could recall where I read it. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/15 "2002-06-14T18:45:10Z")
I, too, always figured Luke was the main character. Until I read what Lucas said during the prequels. But the prequels sure changed a lot of things. Going by the clues in Star Wars, I figured Ep 1-3 would be about Obi-Wan. He found this great star pilot named Anakin and decided to train him on his own. It obviously didn’t work out, so that’s why he was so adamant about sending Luke to Yoda to do it the right way. Ooops. ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/16 "2002-06-14T18:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Morgainelf \* > I thought I read a long time ago that the whole story is actually the story of the 'droids. I wish I could recall where I read it. Lucas said that the whole story would be _told by_ the droids. This because they were the only characters in all the films. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by HubZilla_ > Going by the clues in Star Wars, I figured Ep 1-3 would be about Obi-Wan. He found this great star pilot named Anakin and decided to train him on his own. It obviously didn’t work out, so that’s why he was so adamant about sending Luke to Yoda to do it the right way. Plus being dead puts a bit of a damper on the ability to train someone. ---
**Author:** ![Morgainelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Morgainelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgainelf)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/17 "2002-06-14T19:19:52Z")
Thanks **Threadkiller** , that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/18 "2002-06-14T20:13:10Z")
Vader held back on firing in ESB because even he, himself was dumbstruck by the ineptness of his own men. T hat movie wasn’t about the escape of the rebels or triumph of the Empire, it was a light comedy on the building frustration Vader must endure during his weekly adventures with his whacky incompetant crew. They tip off the rebels with their annoying loud probes that blow up on contact with anything. Then they bungle into the system (“Ohh that Admiral Oswal”) Then they forget to close the back door to the hanger when they break into the rebel base (Seriously watch Vaders reaction as the falcon zooms away. You’d think he was ready to slap his hand against the forehead of his helmet) Two star destroyers nearly ram each other chasing the Falcon (Imagine Vader watching this in his command ship clenched fists pumping in fury "Idiots how could you not see each other?!?!) Next they lose the Falcon and several fighters in the asteroid belt. (“Golly boss there are too many rocks!” “Well maybe if you had learned to watch where you were flying you wouldn’t crash into so many things you nincompoops!” (Edited out in the theatrical verison) After that they fail to detect the Falcon attached to one of their ships. (Good thing no one looks at other ships these days) Finally after his master plan is set into motion his own officers fail to resist against some local police and a lobotomized cyborg. The Luke escaping scene was the coup de gras as Vader just stood there in dumb silence. Thinking about his earlier conversation with his men. “Did you shut off the hyper drive?” Sure thing boss. “It was the hyperdrive you shut down right?” Yep. "What label was on the computer you shut down? “Uhhhh… The hyper drive.” “And you told no one else,” "No one? As in people? “Yes” “No people sir.” “Good it would be bad if someone could warn them we shut off their hyperdrive.” “Yeah that would be pretty bad cause all they’d have to do is hit the on switch to reactivate it.” “What?” “Yeah we just turned the switch off.” “You didn’t completely disable it?” “Naw no need,” “You’re sure no one else knows?” “Yes sir.” “Oh what about the tractor beam?” “what about it?” “Is it warmed up?” “Naw… no need. We’ll warm it up before we use it, takes two minutes tops.” “You sure they can’t escape?” “Don’t worry boss we know what we are doing” ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/19 "2002-06-15T01:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \* > \*\*Then they forget to close the back door to the hanger when they break into the rebel base (Seriously watch Vaders reaction as the falcon zooms away. You’d think he was ready to slap his hand against the forehead of his helmet) > \*\* It’s times like these I wish I had the money for a digital editing system and time to resplice Star Wars to match kingpengvin’s plot. It would be perfect: Vader can be made to say anything. Now, if we can only get Lucas to digitally recreate the head-slap. It’d be a winner! 😃 Or, maybe I’d better lay off the cough syrup for awhile . . . ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-a-little-something-for-those-who-think-george-lucas-is-a-revisionist/113739/20 "2002-06-18T12:06:58Z")
Just ask Lucas to do it… I’m sure he can. And then he’ll say it was his original intention but he didn’t have the technology to make those pesky actors follow his instructions.