OK, Austin, where the hell do you live? I’m packin’ my suitcases as soon as I get off work tonight.
The only thing people give me is a hard time.
Robo-Dude, there is still a thriving boot-
leg alcohol industry worth some millions of
dollars. It pales by comparison to the legal
booze biz, but it is there. While I feel
much the same thing might happen under leg-
alization (illegal dealers would only have a
small share of the market), I feel that some
would still exist.
My larger point was this: We would still
have a number of problems under any legal-
ization plan(s). I don’t know whether it
would be worth it or not. I wonder if any-
one does. And, since my original posting, I
still have yet to hear of any specific leg-
alization plans.
Can anybody tell me how legalizing drugs is going send our society down the tubes? In Holland, where drugs are either legalized or decriminalized the rate of addiction and abuse is lower than it is in the US (this statement is attributed to Dr. David Suzuki, but I can’t find a link to it).
Very seldom, as to both the anonymous tipster and the killed innocent. But since the question seems to rhetorically suggest that we read about these things quite frequently, I wonder how many instances you can cite?
- Rick
Ahhh… Bricker, always keeping me on my toes.
After about 5 minutes of net searching I came up with these:
And Another Case of No Knock Death
Another Dead Guy On a No Knock Raid
I would also throw in Waco, since they were talking about a possible metanphatemine lab at their church, but that would probably qualify as hijacking the thread and lead us off topic.
What the hell…
We were going back and forth a little bit about the Waco verdicts. I asked you a question a couple of times, but I guess the threads died off before you got back and saw the questions.
We were discussing whether or not the jury found them not guilty and then the judge convicted them anyway. Someone pulled up a court summary and it had the jury convictions in it. The question I had, was that the summary mentions that 4 people were cleared by the jury of all counts, are these people still in jail?
I will see if I can find our original posts about this and the court summary so you can look it over.
Ok, back the the topic. I guess part of the problem is drawing the line on what is too many innocent people on the wrong end of a no knock warrant. If you went by percentages, it is possible that some people would find 3%, 2% or maybe .001% an acceptable sacrifice. It seems like every week or so I am reading about another no knock warrant that went bad. This is too much IMHO. The police are not supposed to be gung-ho para-military units who kick in your door and start shooting.
If they do decide to do this, they had better NEVER be wrong. NEVER. OF course, that is only mu opinion.
I’m glad to see this debate revived. Let’s hope we accomplish more this time around.
If you want my opinions on this matter, read that other thread I started.
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
Oh, and don’t bother cliking on that link to Charlie Reese’s column in my OP. The Orlando Sentinel removes his editorials from its website after two weeks.
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
How about the following bumper sticker:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Drugs are bad for you.
Anti-drug laws are worse.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Check his profile. He lives in Baltimore.
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
Sorry to harp, but does anyone have an idea for how current prescription drugs would be handled? What we are really talking about here is dropping the schedule system, right?
I mean, it would seem pretty silly if you couldn’t get tylenol-codeine over the counter but you could get heroine at 7-11.
No it is not legal. But it is ‘tolerated’, meaning that if you are not causing problems with your behavior then you are not going to be bothered by the police.
No they do not. Their drug use rates are less than ours and they do not have a major epidemic of needle transmitted diseases.
If you want I will find links to prove my point. That is what McCaffery wants Americans to believe.
Another fatal no knock raid.
http://www.november.org/TxShooting.html
Occam, where on earth did you get the idea that your kids don’t have easy access right this very minute to PCP, heroin, cocaine, acid, shrooms, pot, nitrous oxide, glue, or any other mind-altering substance humankind has gotten their hands on? Do you think that drug dealers consider school grounds - or even convenience stores - to be offlimits because it would be wrong to sell to kids?
One thing I’ve noticed about many pro-Drug War advocates’ line of thinking is that somehow legalization means Kraft and Pizza Hut will be selling smack to eight year olds, and Mary Kay will be handing out free samples of rock in front of the Alamo.
Legalization does not mean a free-for-all. It means regulation. It means that any one who wants to sell drugs will have to submit to FDA inspection and purity guidelines, pay licensing fees and taxes, and abide by legislation that limits the sale to adults over the age of 21. Allowing legal sales to adults removes the incentive to sell illegally to anything that moves.
If a seller is given a choice between making money legally by selling to adults in a regulated environment OR selling illegally to a child and facing huge fines and imprisonment - they’d be both insane and stupid not to take the legal, profitable route.
Legalization won’t solve all of our drug related problems. It’s won’t prevent people from abusing drugs, driving while high, or generally fucking up their lives out of a need to bend their brains. But the current War on Drugs doesn’t do that either. Instead, it eats up an enormous amount of our resources, takes hundreds of thousands of nonviolent citizens out of productive roles, and makes a travesty of our civil rights.
Until human beings as a species learn how to cope with the problems that cause drug abuse and addiction, there is no perfect solution. However, we do have a choice to minimize the harm done by drugs, and for the last hundred years, we’ve made the wrong decision.
phouka, I knew someone would reply with the following, but I didn’t want to cloud my post with, “and I’m not saying that, but”'s and “Some of you will disagree, but”'s. So 'ere we go.
“Occam, where on earth did you get the idea that your kids don’t have easy access right
this very minute to PCP, heroin, cocaine, acid, shrooms, pot, nitrous oxide, glue, or any other mind-altering substance humankind has gotten their hands on?”
Ok, we need to clear this up. My sarcastic remark never mentioned pot, nitrous oxide, shrooms or glue…I have a hard time believing you can OD on pot or laughing gas…(glue can be nasty though). I’m talking about making hard, dangerous drugs socially acceptable. Yeah you can still get 'em but it’s a bit like making drive-by shootings at middle-schools legal.
“Do you think that drug dealers consider school grounds - or even convenience stores - to be offlimits because it would be wrong to sell to kids?”
No I don’t.
“Legalization does not mean a free-for-all. It means regulation. It means that any one who wants to sell drugs will have to submit to FDA inspection and purity guidelines, pay licensing fees and taxes,…”
Oh I see, so if it’s regulated and taxed then people wont get addicted to a life-taking poison.
“and abide by legislation that limits the sale to adults over the age of 21. Allowing legal sales to adults removes the incentive to sell illegally to anything that moves.”
Is that how it works with alcohol? You don’t think kids can get into daddy’s coke cabnet?
“But the current War on Drugs doesn’t do that either. Instead, it eats up an enormous amount of our resources, takes hundreds of thousands of nonviolent citizens out of productive roles,”
Aww common. A heavy smoking pothead’s good for the Butterfinger market and supplying cheap labor to fastfood, and how many smackheads win the Nobel prize?
“and makes a travesty of our civil rights.”
I have no sympathy for people who sell drugs, they argue their rights are being violated. Look, when you break the law and become a criminal then you have to expect that you just lost the right to freedom.
If their innocent, that’s another story and another topic for debate.
Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have desperately needed the War on Drugs. No more commies?!?!? We’d better find an enemy somewhere. How else can a government the size of ours here in the US be justified if we can’t make the public feel threatened?
They are…they’re…If they’re innocent.
Damn tpyos.
Well that is at least part of this thread. I listed a whole bunch of abuses of innocent people’s civil liberties up there.
I could care less about the junkie. I care about the loss of liberty that every American is suffering because of the War on Drugs. Personally, I like Tracer’s bumper sticker up there.
Your example of alchohol is a great illustration of the war on drugs. The laws regulating it are not perfect. They fail all the time. However, prohibition was worse.
We do not live in a perfect world. People are going to be stupid and get messed up. That should not mean the rest of us need to subject ourselves to invasions of our privacy and give up our rights.
Occam wrote:
>Ok, we need to clear this up. My sarcastic remark never mentioned pot, nitrous oxide, shrooms or glue…I have a hard time believing you can OD on pot or laughing gas…
The lethal dose of marijuana is about one-third your body weight, consumed all at once. There are ODS from laughing gas. A few years back, there were four kids who died from asphyxiation after filling their car with laughing gas.
>(glue can be nasty though).
As far as I know, the only ODs are workers in glue factories or kids who tried to do it with a plastic bag over their head. BTW, did you ever wonder where kids got the idea to sniff glue? Turns out it almost never happened until 1959. Then, by 1960, there was a major epidemic. You can read all about it at http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm - see the chapter titled “How to Launch a Nationwide Drug Menace”
>I’m talking about making hard, dangerous drugs socially acceptable.
Who, besides you, said that anyone should make them “socially acceptable”?
>Yeah you can still get 'em but it’s a bit like making drive-by shootings at middle-schools legal.
No, it isn’t. Drive by shootings injure another person.
>Oh I see, so if it’s regulated and taxed then people wont get addicted to a life-taking poison.
No, I don’t know anyone but silly prohibitionists who have ever suggested that. Regulation and taxation will, however, make it easier to deal with the problems that happen.
>Is that how it works with alcohol? You don’t think kids can get into daddy’s coke cabnet?
The Federal Government’s own surveys show that illegal drugs are more available to kids than they ever have been and that many kids report that they are more freely available than the legal drugs.
In case you weren’t aware, the biggest single cause of drug epidemics in kids is anti-drug campaigns. In fact, the terrible effect of prohibition on children was one of the major reasons that alcohol prohibition was repealed.
>Aww common. A heavy smoking pothead’s good for the Butterfinger market and supplying cheap labor to fastfood, and how many smackheads win the Nobel prize?
You probably haven’t heard about Dr. William Halsted, founder of Johns Hopkins Medical School and the “father of modern surgery”. He invented most of the basic techniques of modern surgery while he was addicted to morphine. You can read all about it at the url above, in the chapter titled “Some Eminent Narcotics Addicts.”
>I have no sympathy for people who sell drugs,
I don’t think anyone asked you to.
>they argue their rights are being violated.
No, drug dealers don’t make that argument at all. They are quite happy with prohibition, thanks, because it is a price support system for them, guaranteeing that they can make huge profits with little work.
>Look, when you break the law and become a criminal then you have to expect that you just lost the right to freedom.
Here is a concept to consider – just because someone did something stupid (such as take drugs) doesn’t mean that we should do something even more stupid (like spend a lot of our money to lock them up for a long time) in return.
World’s Largest Online Library of Drug Policy - http://www.druglibrary.org
>Sorry to harp, but does anyone have an idea for how current prescription drugs would be handled?
Same as they are now.
> What we are really talking about here is dropping the schedule system, right?
No, we are talking about not jailing people who really don’t need to be in jail.
World’s Largest Online Library of Drug Policy - http://www.druglibrary.org
>Can anybody tell me how legalizing drugs is going send our society down the tubes? In Holland, where drugs are either legalized or decriminalized the rate of addiction and abuse is lower than it is in the US (this statement is attributed to Dr. David Suzuki, but I can’t find a link to it).
The Dutch government has lots of info online about their drug policy and its results. You can find it through the links on my homepage - http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer You can also find a good deal of information on the programs in Europe at http://www.lindesmith.org
World’s Largest Online Library of Drug Policy - http://www.druglibrary.org