# Here's why it's "One Man, One Vote" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756 "2011-09-09T21:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/61 "2011-09-11T16:00:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, well, no republic in history ever destroyed itself by way of the plebs voting themselves largesse from the treasury. Alexander Fraser Tytler: > [@](#): > > A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/62 "2011-09-11T16:01:28Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Presumably, yes, there would be zoning laws. But laws change. Suppose the city council is planning a change to allow strip malls in a previously residential area. What’s to stop someone from pushing for his neighborhood to be rezoned so he can make a profit at the expense of his neighbors? The other neighbors would outvote the selfish property owner to keep their neighborhood from being overrun with liquor stores and pawn shops. A homeless guy might vote for it in order to have another place to buy liquor or pawn his stolen items. A renter doesn’t care because his lease is up in 4 months. [QUOTE=Robot Arm] My problem with **jtgain** ’s argument is twofold. Practical, because a homeowner’s individual economic interest may not be the best interest of the entire community; and ideological, because people who live in a community have interests beyond the simple market value of their home. [/QUOTE] No each individual doesn’t have the interests of the community at heart, but the collection of property owners in a community certainly do. And as I said above, the better the community thrives, the property values increase. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/63 "2011-09-11T16:13:21Z")
“Sure, some of my best friends are (…whatever…), but when they start moving in, my property values go down!” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/64 "2011-09-11T16:29:14Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The other neighbors would outvote the selfish property owner to keep their neighborhood from being overrun with liquor stores and pawn shops. A homeless guy might vote for it in order to have another place to buy liquor or pawn his stolen items. A renter doesn’t care because his lease is up in 4 months. Well, it presumably wouldn’t be just one person against the whole neighborhood. Figure that it will be one side of the street against the other. A renter has a financial stake to stay, because moving costs money. > [@](#): > > No each individual doesn’t have the interests of the community at heart, but the collection of property owners in a community certainly do. And as I said above, the better the community thrives, the property values increase. You don’t realize any profit from a home until you sell it. For people who want to stay in a neighborhood, the money that they’d get if they sold is just an idea. Those are the people (owners and renters) who will work for the long-term benefit of the community, because they plan to be there for the long term to enjoy those benefits. People whose only interest is in the market value of their home are already planning to cash out and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/65 "2011-09-11T17:06:07Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > True, but to fairly state the other side of the argument, it is not the actual paying of the tax that makes the qualification a rational one, but the ownership of the property itself. > > If I own a piece of property in Boise, ID, I have a legitimate economic interest in seeing Boise and the state of Idaho prosper. If I rent, I don’t have any scratch in the game. I could pack up and leave in the morning; I’m not invested personally in the area. Same way with the homeless guy buying liquor. He can hitchhike and buy liquor in Washington State the next day. He doesn’t have a vested interest in seeing Boise succeed. > > By buying property, I have shown an intention to invest part (or all) of my resources in the area and have a very distinct and personal interest in voting for policies that will make my town and state prosper to protect/enlarge the value of my investment. > > The flip side is that the renter or the homeless guy might be in favor of policies that benefit them personally and the fate of Boise and the state of Idaho be damned. What, people who buy houses can’t sell their houses and buy houses elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/66 "2011-09-11T17:22:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Well, the idea is that if the group is “property owners” then their interest will align perfectly with the common good because what is good for the city, county, and state as a whole will benefit them by protecting or increasing their property values. > > If you vote for bad policies, nobody wants to live in your community, and your property value falls. If you vote for good policies, more people want to live in your area and your property value rises. > > I don’t support the idea because it does leave renters out in the cold with no way to voice their concerns even though they live in the area. But I do understand the argument and it seems like a coherent one. I disagree. The only way this argument makes sense is if you accept the premise that property owners have different interests than renters have. If their interests were identical, then they’re be no point in arguing about whether or not renters could vote. In fact, property owners would presumably be happy with a government in which only renters voted because the renters’ interests would be the same as the property owners’. So there must be one set of interests that property owners have and one set of interests that renters have. And where does that leave the common interest? I say the common interest is the combined interest of the property owners and renters - they all live in the community so the common interest is the collective interests of all community residents. So which do you feel is most likely? Property owners representing the interest of property owners and renters? Renters representing the interests of renters and property owners? Or property owners and renters collectively representing the interests of property owners and renters? I think it’s the third option. Because if you can’t trust renters to represent property owners, how can you trust property owners to represent renters? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/67 "2011-09-11T17:30:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Alexander Fraser Tytler: > > > [@](#): > > > > A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy. Well, that’s who it’s usually attributed to, although the [earliest actual citation](http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html) anyone’s found seems to be a letter to the editor in the Daily Oklahoman in 1951. Not that it’s actually true in either case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/68 "2011-09-11T17:33:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Alexander Fraser Tytler: Yes, yes, good one. As you doubtless know: 1. [Tytler did not write that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tytler_cycle#Misquotation_-_Tytler_Cycle)[Seems to be a RW spam-lie.](http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp) 2. If he had he would have been wrong. The process described in the “Tytler Cycle” has never happened in any republic in history. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/69 "2011-09-11T17:36:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that everyone, barring certain age and competency restrictions) should have the right to vote. But I also think that people have a responsibility to contribute to the general good. Everyone should have to contribute. Either in dollars, or for those for whom the burden would be too high, through labor. I see no reason why those who do not contribute should have a say in decisions that are made with the contributions of everyone else. So corporations that don’t pay taxes should be prevented from lobbying and donating to political campaigns. Can’t stop them from voting since they are not people and can not vote. How about a limit on tax escapement for corps. That is where the money is. Well that and rich with tax shelters and offshore bank accounts. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/70 "2011-09-11T18:25:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, good one. As you doubtless know: As I _would_ have known had I accepted as valid the Wiki article on _Tocqueville_ listing it among quotes often misattributed to _him_. Thanks for the correction. However it is still good to beware of appeals by those who wish to “bribe the people with their own money” (the usual phrasing of the Tocqueville misquote). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/71 "2011-09-12T14:46:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > However it is still good to beware of appeals by those who wish to “bribe the people with their own money” (the usual phrasing of the Tocqueville misquote). [shrug] A candidate who promises to bribe me with the rich guy’s money is worth voting for, even by objective disinterested standards. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/72 "2011-09-12T14:51:22Z")
And let’s just list all those countries which were former democracies which have been re-invented as dictatorships, and ultimately monarchies. I’m sure we can do this from memory… Ok, GO! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/73 "2011-09-12T15:24:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And let’s just list all those countries which were former democracies which have been re-invented as dictatorships, and ultimately monarchies. I’m sure we can do this from memory… > > Ok, GO! Rome . . . France . . . Does Haiti count? . . . Not Athens, anyway (the fake Tytler quote was supposedly about Athens). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/74 "2011-09-12T17:10:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Rome . . . France . . . Does Haiti count? . . . Not Athens, anyway (the fake Tytler quote was supposedly about Athens). Speaking of Athens – Greece seems well on the road to this right about now. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/75 "2011-09-12T20:21:49Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > “How in the Hell did we get to a point when we had so many GD people not paying federal income tax?” It’s not like they ever did pay income tax. “Income tax” has been collected on upper margins since the beginning, & was not intended to be universal in the first place. “Payroll taxes” are on income in the form of wages and salaries, and are paid by a larger proportion of society. People who aren’t paying payroll taxes have very low wages and salaries, and the “blood from a stone” truism holds. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/76 "2011-09-12T20:25:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, well, no republic in history ever destroyed itself by way of the plebs voting themselves largesse from the treasury. If the masses are so untrustworthy, would not an elite also be untrustworthy? Why is it OK for someone who makes “my income or higher” to wield the power of the state to his personal advantage, but not some poor homeless person? If one wants to draw a correlation between abject poverty and mental illness, perhaps they can justify it in their own minds. But the poor are not all especially mad, nor the mad all especially poor. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/77 "2011-09-12T20:38:45Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > By definition, the poor and chronically unemployed have below-average abilities at seeing to their own interests. If the argument is that they should be able to vote so that they can see to their own interests, then the argument also holds that they will do a poor job of it. Well, that’s sort of circular. “The poor are too dumb to have the franchise, because they’re poor, and we’re defining mental competence by ability to make money.” What was it the Yardbirds said? _Can you condemn a man if your faith he doesn’t hold Say the color of his skin is the color of his soul And call a man a fool if for wealth he doesn’t strive? Then, mister you’re a better man than I_ Should a mendicant have the vote? How about a woman who devotes her life to the church, or to volunteering? How much money do I have to make to be able to vote on policy? For that matter, how much does ability to make good policy really overlap with ability to make good money? A selfish man may make a decent living and be a lousy citizen. A selfless man could be the opposite. Really, you’re restricting the franchise based on something that’s at best irrelevant to a lot of policy about justice, the environment, and so forth. As a practical consequence, of course, you end up with the problems identified in the OP, and in Polycarp’s post #3. A class who are elite and deemed competent, and whose wealth (or other qualification for franchise) is jealously guarded as key to their franchise, lording it over disenfranchised poor helots, or whatever we call sub-citizens. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/78 "2011-09-12T20:53:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Grrrrr. I’m an American, I was born here, this is my country. I don’t fucking need any more skin in the game than that. Period. Full stop. Dude, I have _skin._ Just being alive and in this country means I have skin, literal skin, my skin, in the future of this country. This isn’t a baccarat table we’re talking about. This is the body that makes law, law for all of us. Let the financiers go off to some desert town and steal from each other 'til they die. But Washington shouldn’t be their table game. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/79 "2011-09-12T20:59:09Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Notably, some of the most reliable and effective communitarian safety nets exist within communities in which most of the time, most people do pull their own weight. The Mormons have a great social welfare network. It works precisely because people don’t use it unless they absolutely have to and (surprise surprise) most functional adults don’t have to. And there’s nothing innately privileged about Mormons (or citizens of countries like Japan, with a strong work ethic alongside strong family/ethnic cohesion and support for those who do fall on hard times). Historically they were a bunch of immigrant farm-stock Swedes or whatever. Point of information: Old-stock Mormons are almost entirely of English descent, not “Swedes or whatever.” Oh, by the way… Sweden, since my (not Mormon) ancestors left it, has actually turned into a huge safety-net country. England is still trying to be halfway classically liberal. Guess which one has more class tension and problems with endemic poverty. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/80 "2011-09-12T22:30:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that everyone, barring certain age and competency restrictions) should have the right to vote. But I also think that people have a responsibility to contribute to the general good. Everyone should have to contribute. Either in dollars, or for those for whom the burden would be too high, through labor. I see no reason why those who do not contribute should have a say in decisions that are made with the contributions of everyone else. Work for whom? Who gets to say, “This work is sufficient to gain you franchise,” what does he get out of it, and how does he get the “super-franchise” to bestow franchise? > [@Muffin](#): > > Simple. If you take the vote away from a lot of people, they will put you up against the wall and shoot you. Yeah, that’s the part I like. The, “Come the revolution you’ll be up against the wall,” part. Go ahead and disenfranchise me! All that means is that the electoral system is completely not on my side, & I have no more reason to deny my real natural power: the power of violence and threat. More pragmatically, I don’t think a society with a universal franchise will actually give it up. Debate on, “whom we will disenfranchise,” is based on a pipe dream. The real problem is that some people are convinced to be ashamed of their franchise & either don’t use it or use it to vote against their own interests. And even that would be OK if it were disinterested, in the interest of justice or a better world. But often they thus vote for the interests of those who are not so selfless & accept that voting, lobbying, punditry, and political advertising are just more behaviors to which one should rationally apply self-interest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756.md?page=5)