# Here's why it's "One Man, One Vote" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756 "2011-09-09T21:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/81 "2011-09-12T23:23:57Z")
How many people actually pay not tax? A few do not pay income tax, but pretty much everyone pays consumption taxes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/82 "2011-09-13T00:19:16Z")
So as someone under the 50% mark. How do I avoid paying all this tax? I’m paying state income tax, federal income tax, sales tax, I’m paying tax on my gasoline, my household pays property tax. How does this not paying tax thing work? Do I have to sign up somewhere? I tried telling the store I didn’t pay tax but they rung up sales tax anyway.😕 Maybe I need to learn the secret handshake? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/83 "2011-09-13T00:32:08Z")
Live on roots and berries you forage in the park where you live under a fallen log, and use barter for all transactions with other persons. That’s the only way. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/84 "2011-09-13T00:41:54Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So as someone under the 50% mark. How do I avoid paying all this tax? The claim is not that 50% pay no tax. Everyone pays some tax. Everyone, even the very poor. The claim being made is that 50% of households pay no income tax. They do pay federal payroll taxes, state income tax, sales taxes, property taxes, and excise taxes. No one but the dead pay no taxes at all. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/85 "2011-09-13T00:49:25Z")
I don’t see any reason to penalize homesteaders for being self sufficient or homeless people for being down on their luck. Having possession of money is not a great indicator of how much you have truly earned or how positive of a contribution you have made. I certainly wouldn’t want to see people getting rich off of clever manipulation of loopholes or dismantling companies for their assets getting extra votes. There’s plenty of ways of making money that make the world worse off for everyone but yourself. No reason to reward that. I think kids are perfectly capable of making reasoned votes, but the reason we don’t let them is because their parents have undue legal power over them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/86 "2011-09-13T01:12:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The claim is not that 50% pay no tax. Everyone pays some tax. Everyone, even the very poor. > > The claim being made is that 50% of households pay no income tax. They do pay federal payroll taxes, state income tax, sales taxes, property taxes, and excise taxes. > > No one but the dead pay no taxes at all. So assuming this is true (I have pay stubs that disagree), why is that one tax special, and all the others apparently meaningless? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/87 "2011-09-13T01:14:51Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So assuming this is true (I have pay stubs that disagree), why is that one tax special, and all the others apparently meaningless? That is a very good question that the people making that complaint have no satisfactory answer for. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/88 "2011-09-13T10:12:33Z")
The most interesting thing about this idea is that, if you could pass the law in question, you would have just demonstrated conclusively that the law is unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/89 "2011-09-13T10:49:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that everyone, barring certain age and competency restrictions) should have the right to vote. But I also think that people have a responsibility to contribute to the general good. Everyone should have to contribute. Either in dollars, or for those for whom the burden would be too high, through labor. I see no reason why those who do not contribute should have a say in decisions that are made with the contributions of everyone else. We all have an interest in making sure the people who have don’t exploit the have nots. That’s the entire purpose of the democratic style of government. I have a say because lots of rich people are causing tons of problems in our country, and those trickle down to me. Because of certain business owners, we are in a recession. Because of the recession, we got a new Party of radicals called the Tea Party. And because of the Tea Party, we almost had not just a recession but a depression. Sure as hell that would have affected me, whether I pay income tax or not. It is in my interest to make sure the government regulates these people so they don’t fuck us over again. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/90 "2011-09-13T11:44:00Z")
The problem is that groups, after receiving power, always seek to perpetuate themselves and prevent outsiders from joining (and thus diluting their power). If limit the vote to landowners, sooner or later they’ll pass a law stating that their children will also be voters, even if they don’t own land; then they’ll limit the addition of new property owners to their ranks by setting a minimum amount of property needed to vote for the first time, and other grandfather clauses (like an actual grandfather clause). Within a decade or two, you’ll have two fixed classes, differentiated solely by the fact that one can vote and the other can’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/91 "2011-09-13T13:38:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Point of information: Old-stock Mormons are almost entirely of English descent, not “Swedes or whatever.” > > Oh, by the way… > > Sweden, since my (not Mormon) ancestors left it, has actually turned into a huge safety-net country. England is still trying to be halfway classically liberal. Guess which one has more class tension and problems with endemic poverty. But which has the loveli lakes, the wonderful telefone system, and mani interesting furri animals inkluding the majestik moose? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/92 "2011-09-13T13:39:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No one but the dead pay no taxes at all. I know. _sigh_☹ We’ll find a way! Someday! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/93 "2011-09-13T13:40:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The most interesting thing about this idea is that, if you could pass the law in question, you would have just demonstrated conclusively that the law is unnecessary. Wait, about what idea? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/94 "2011-09-13T13:43:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The problem is that groups, after receiving power, always seek to perpetuate themselves and prevent outsiders from joining (and thus diluting their power). If limit the vote to landowners, sooner or later they’ll pass a law stating that their children will also be voters, even if they don’t own land; then they’ll limit the addition of new property owners to their ranks by setting a minimum amount of property needed to vote for the first time, and other grandfather clauses (like an actual grandfather clause). Within a decade or two, you’ll have two fixed classes, differentiated solely by the fact that one can vote and the other can’t. And you wouldn’t think it matters much to the individual, who might not even **bother** to vote. How much power is that, just having a vote? But to the **group** so included or excluded, it matters. As Robert Dahl demonstrated in [_Polyarchy,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyarchy) it matters; the group without a vote – being a group candidates and officeholders can safely ignore – somehow turns out to be the group without any rights. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/95 "2011-09-13T17:21:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that everyone, barring certain age and competency restrictions) should have the right to vote. But I also think that people have a responsibility to contribute to the general good. Everyone should have to contribute. Either in dollars, or for those for whom the burden would be too high, through labor. I see no reason why those who do not contribute should have a say in decisions that are made with the contributions of everyone else. It’s an old question. Do the people serve the state or does the state serve the people? ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/96 "2011-09-13T18:22:08Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So assuming this is true (I have pay stubs that disagree), why is that one tax special, and all the others apparently meaningless? [http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/Content/PDF/T11-0173.pdf](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/Content/PDF/T11-0173.pdf) The fact that 50% of “tax units” (roughly equivalent to households filing taxes, but not exactly the same) don’t pay taxes is pretty solid. The argument of why income tax is the only way to have skin in the game is much less solid. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/97 "2011-09-13T18:26:17Z")
So et me get this straight: the residents of Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Washington should lose their votes in state elections because they do not pay state income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/98 "2011-09-13T18:29:00Z")
Let’s limit voting to only Native Americans. It’s the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/99 "2011-09-13T18:43:46Z")
How arrogant to state that property owners, who will vote for ‘good policies’ that will make their property values go up, will make everything better everyone. It’s just another bastardization of ‘trickle down’ … and guess who ends up getting trickled upon. Listen, if I don’t own property and I’m broke and starving, I’d much sooner vote for a soup kitchen to be built next to your house than voting for a zoning law that lets you put up a new gazebo in your back yard. Fuck your property value … I’m dying. Chrissakes, when did money become more important than people? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756/100 "2011-09-13T18:47:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know if I’d go that far. I’d have a hard time arguing that there aren’t adults who are too mentally deficient to vote. And I’d have an equally hard time arguing that there aren’t precocious nine-year-olds who would be competent voters. > > But as Mason once said to Dixon, we’ve got to draw the line somewhere. As a general rule, I believe it’s reasonable to say adults are competent voters and children aren’t. So it’s reasonable to establish an age limit on voting. I don’t believe that any similar reason exists to prohibit non-tax-payers, black people, women, or non-property-owners from voting. Ok, so why 18? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-why-its-one-man-one-vote/595756.md?page=6)