# Heritage? Nah, just hate. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487 "2017-08-12T23:49:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/181 "2017-08-15T19:33:28Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > But Lincoln was happy to allow the Northern border states to retain slavery. He was certainly happy to assert that blacks and whites were most certainly not equal and he was happy to postpone the emancipation proclamation until such time as it was politically (and militarily) expedient to do so. > > Lincoln was not opposed, in a determined and meaningful way to slavery, he was opposed to the dissolution of the country and was willing to fight a war in order to prevent it. > > Lincoln is repeatedly on record saying that black people certainly had no claim to the same rights and freedoms as white people. > > Lincoln was an avowed white supremacist. > > So when does the Lincoln memorial get removed? Right about the same time you folks finally have the revelation that whatever his flaws, Lincoln ended slavery in the USA and preserved the Union. In other words, I ain’t holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/182 "2017-08-15T19:34:50Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > But Lincoln was happy to allow the Northern border states to retain slavery. He was certainly happy to assert that blacks and whites were most certainly not equal and he was happy to postpone the emancipation proclamation until such time as it was politically (and militarily) expedient to do so. > > Lincoln was not opposed, in a determined and meaningful way to slavery, he was opposed to the dissolution of the country and was willing to fight a war in order to prevent it. > > Lincoln is repeatedly on record saying that black people certainly had no claim to the same rights and freedoms as white people. > > Lincoln was an avowed white supremacist. > > So when does the Lincoln memorial get removed? Lincoln is celebrated for the good things he did – preserving the Union, ending slavery, etc. Confederate monuments are celebrating and honoring bad things – fighting to defend slavery, and considering when most were erected, symbolizing support of Jim Crow, segregation, and white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/183 "2017-08-15T19:38:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Lincoln is celebrated for the good things he did – preserving the Union, ending slavery, etc. Confederate monuments are celebrating and honoring bad things – fighting to defend slavery, and considering when most were erected, symbolizing support of Jim Crow, segregation, and white supremacy. You aren’t a mind reader and you don’t know why a particular person likes or dislikes any given monument, painting, or other artifact. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/184 "2017-08-15T19:45:13Z")
photographing a neo Nazi attack: > [@](#): > > ABC7’s Elex Michaelson interviews our photographer Zach D Roberts about the image he took of four neo-Nazis attacking black school teacher De’Andre Harris with iron bars and lumber in a parking garage in Charlottesville on Saturday, Aug 12. from [Greg Palast’s website](http://www.gregpalast.com/) SD poster “Zeke” is apparently wrong, the “bad guys” on the right DID start the violence. (duh!) ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/185 "2017-08-15T19:45:47Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Really? I wasn’t able to watch it all. Because at 5:22 that sure looked like a shield rush (and every SCA fighter shakes their head because is was a really bad one). 5:38 they are stabbing a guy with flag poles, and I can’t tell what he did to them. Who approached whose lines? Who was the aggressor? How many on the left were shown with injuries? How many were shown having been attacked with chemicals? Who was reacting to violence with violence? The left attacked the right responded. > [@](#): > > These guys came with weapons, they came with torches, they came with shields. Some even did open carry. They came for a fight. Let me address the torches first. I get the symbolism it was absolutely present and intended. But it was also practical. Show me a nighttime march that doesn’t involve the marchers carrying a light source. That part was practical. Yes they brought weapons, guns amongst other things. To that I reply: 1)Your stupid fucking country has enshrined that right and so them being in possession of them was more than simply legal it was constitutionally endorsed. 2)How many shots were fired? None. 3)How many of the counter-protesters were injured - prior to the car? None. That doesn’t sound like people “looking for a fight” but rather people being prepared for one. Even when they were getting maced there was no fight. Call that cowardice or pragmatism but I’ll promise you that if the right had maced the left and the left had failed to respond in kind the right would be cowards and the left would be paragons of self-restraint. > [@](#): > > If they were gonna denounce that guy who ran over the counter-protestors they were way too late and brought way too much fighting equipment to say they were sorry at that time. A spokesman for Unite The Right came out after the car event in order to address it. Maybe he was going to say, “Hell Yeah!” \<— I doubt it. But we’ll never know because a mob of the righteous left shut him down and attacked him. Again white supremacism is beyond reprehensible. But then they would say the same of us. Hate is hate is hate no matter where it is directed. No genocidal group has ever thought, “Gee, our hate is unjustified but let’s do it anyway.” Every group that hates any other group feels that their hatred is justified and the hatred of the opposing side is evil. Until such a time as we can get past such low-entry ideas as “hate is justified because we are right” we will never, ever make progress toward decency. Just out of curiosity (not really) where are the calls from the left, from Black Lives Matter, from Antifa for a Truth and Reconciliation process in the States? Canada, my home and native land, is in the midst of one, and arguably two, and we are racist as fuck. South Africa had one and they sure as shit were racist as fuck - historical footnote they got the townships idea from how Canada did the reservations. If you people actually wanted to heal the wounds and move forward you’d think you might follow the example of other nations that have tried. But you don’t want to so you haven’t. You just want to scream “Me, me, me” against “them, them, them.” Sorry for having been a **Big T** ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/186 "2017-08-15T19:49:52Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Right about the same time you folks finally have the revelation that whatever his flaws, Lincoln ended slavery in the USA and preserved the Union. > > In other words, I ain’t holding my breath. Ummmm, what “you folks” do I belong to? Since you have framed it as “us” vs “them” what “them” do I belong to? I said that an avowed racist fought a war where slavery was a distant second as far as priorities went and you said he was a racist but that is forgivable because of an unintended consequence of his primary goal. So it’s okay to be racist so long as it works out in the end? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/187 "2017-08-15T19:50:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You aren’t a mind reader and you don’t know why a particular person likes or dislikes any given monument, painting, or other artifact. No – I’m talking about why they were erected, which we can determine from historical documents. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/188 "2017-08-15T19:52:13Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Just out of curiosity (not really) where are the calls from the left, from Black Lives Matter, from Antifa for a Truth and Reconciliation process in the States? You say this like you have any clue whatsoever what BLM or the left is asking, when you very obviously don’t. In reality-land, one of the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter Network has called for truth and reconciliation, as have many others in left antiracism. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/189 "2017-08-15T19:52:26Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > photographing a neo Nazi attack: > > from [Greg Palast’s website](http://www.gregpalast.com/) > > SD poster “Zeke” is apparently wrong, the “bad guys” on the right DID start the violence. > > (duh!) You wanna show me that on ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC? I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m saying that that is the sort of stuff mainstream networks would slurp up with a straw. Are you suggesting that all mainstream media is engaging in a pro-Nazi cover-up of the incident? BTW - convention (and I think the rule) here is that poster’s names are bolded \*\* JackieLikesVariety\*\*. FYI ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/190 "2017-08-15T19:55:49Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You say this like you have any clue whatsoever what BLM or the left is asking, when you very obviously don’t. > > In reality-land, one of the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter Network has called for truth and reconciliation, as have many others in left antiracism. Cite? And where are the white left trumpeting their support? I love being told I don’t know what the left is asking. I’ve got pretty solid left credentials. I’ve no idea what this “new-left” wants. And neither do they. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/191 "2017-08-15T20:00:30Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Who approached whose lines? Who was the aggressor? How many on the left were shown with injuries? How many were shown having been attacked with chemicals? > > Who was reacting to violence with violence? > > The left attacked the right responded. Horseshit, nitpicking and loaded answers. I’m looking at a shield charge there (I’ve been in enough SCAdian fights to know who is doing the attacking). Whine about it all you want but that’s an attack move. > [@](#): > > Let me address the torches first. I get the symbolism it was absolutely present and intended. But it was also practical. Show me a nighttime march that doesn’t involve the marchers carrying a light source. That part was practical. ANd the best thing to use is something that invokes the good old Leni Riefenstahl-photographed Nazi rallies. SO much better than those libfags and their silly candles amiright? > [@](#): > > Yes they brought weapons, guns amongst other things. To that I reply: > > 1)Your stupid fucking country has enshrined that right and so them being in possession of them was more than simply legal it was constitutionally endorsed. > 2)How many shots were fired? None. > 3)How many of the counter-protesters were injured - prior to the car? None. 1. THey brought more than firearms. 2. Congrats. Do you want me to give them a fucking medal? 3. Bullshit. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t sound like people “looking for a fight” but rather people being prepared for one. Even when they were getting maced there was no fight. You don’t bring weapons and call it a peacful protest. > [@](#): > > Call that cowardice or pragmatism but I’ll promise you that if the right had maced the left and the left had failed to respond in kind the right would be cowards and the left would be paragons of self-restraint. Open racist came for a fight, got one. Whine about it. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > A spokesman for Unite The Right came out after the car event in order to address it. Maybe he was going to say, “Hell Yeah!” \<— I doubt it. But we’ll never know because a mob of the righteous left shut him down and attacked him. I’m not crying for the guy who helped build this environment. > [@](#): > > Again white supremacism is beyond reprehensible. But then they would say the same of us. Hate is hate is hate no matter where it is directed. No genocidal group has ever thought, “Gee, our hate is unjustified but let’s do it anyway.” Every group that hates any other group feels that their hatred is justified and the hatred of the opposing side is evil. You don’t seem to be thinking this way, you seem to be very fond of apologetics for racists. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/192 "2017-08-15T20:00:56Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Who approached whose lines? Who was the aggressor? How many on the left were shown with injuries? How many were shown having been attacked with chemicals? > > Who was reacting to violence with violence? > > The left attacked the right responded. > > Let me address the torches first. I get the symbolism it was absolutely present and intended. But it was also practical. Show me a nighttime march that doesn’t involve the marchers carrying a light source. That part was practical. > > Yes they brought weapons, guns amongst other things. To that I reply: > > 1)Your stupid fucking country has enshrined that right and so them being in possession of them was more than simply legal it was constitutionally endorsed. > 2)How many shots were fired? None. > 3)How many of the counter-protesters were injured - prior to the car? None. > > That doesn’t sound like people “looking for a fight” but rather people being prepared for one. Even when they were getting maced there was no fight. > > Call that cowardice or pragmatism but I’ll promise you that if the right had maced the left and the left had failed to respond in kind the right would be cowards and the left would be paragons of self-restraint. > > A spokesman for Unite The Right came out after the car event in order to address it. Maybe he was going to say, “Hell Yeah!” \<— I doubt it. But we’ll never know because a mob of the righteous left shut him down and attacked him. > > Again white supremacism is beyond reprehensible. But then they would say the same of us. Hate is hate is hate no matter where it is directed. No genocidal group has ever thought, “Gee, our hate is unjustified but let’s do it anyway.” Every group that hates any other group feels that their hatred is justified and the hatred of the opposing side is evil. > > Until such a time as we can get past such low-entry ideas as “hate is justified because we are right” we will never, ever make progress toward decency. > > Just out of curiosity (not really) where are the calls from the left, from Black Lives Matter, from Antifa for a Truth and Reconciliation process in the States? > > Canada, my home and native land, is in the midst of one, and arguably two, and we are racist as fuck. > South Africa had one and they sure as shit were racist as fuck - historical footnote they got the townships idea from how Canada did the reservations. > > If you people actually wanted to heal the wounds and move forward you’d think you might follow the example of other nations that have tried. But you don’t want to so you haven’t. You just want to scream “Me, me, me” against “them, them, them.” > > Sorry for having been a **Big T** Stop your both sides bullshit. It’s way too late for that horse shit. Fucking Nazi apologist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/193 "2017-08-15T20:02:48Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > But Lincoln was happy to allow the Northern border states to retain slavery. He was certainly happy to assert that blacks and whites were most certainly not equal and he was happy to postpone the emancipation proclamation until such time as it was politically (and militarily) expedient to do so. And how does this contradict my point that for Lincoln, the war was about slavery? > [@](#): > > Lincoln was not opposed, in a determined and meaningful way to slavery, he was opposed to the dissolution of the country and was willing to fight a war in order to prevent it. “A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free.” Guess he meant there should be no free states? Lincoln was opposed to the dissolution of the country, within limits. If he hadn’t wanted to limit slavery to the 15 existing slave states, there wouldn’t have been an issue to drive secession. He was willing to do a great deal to keep the South from seceding, but leaving the door open to slavery’s expansion to new territories was not one of those things. Clearly he regarded this as a more paramount issue than preserving the Union. Ideally he wanted both, of course: a preserved Union where slavery would not expand beyond its 1861 borders. But he prioritized the latter over the former. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/194 "2017-08-15T20:02:49Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Ummmm, what “you folks” do I belong to? Since you have framed it as “us” vs “them” what “them” do I belong to? :rolleyes: Its a little group called “The False Equivelencers”, they’d have a weeklyt meeting at at a bar but they can’t agree which bar is morally worse. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/195 "2017-08-15T20:04:13Z")
Sorry all, post 191 by **Mr. Miskatonic** is going to take me a while to unpack and reply to. I’ll be with you all in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/196 "2017-08-15T20:04:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No – I’m talking about why they were erected, which we can determine from historical documents. [The 1911 dedication speech](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/florida/articles/2017-06-21/florida-county-debates-whether-to-move-confederate-statue) for the Tampa Confederate Memorial: “The South stands ready to welcome all good citizens who seek to make their homes within her borders. But the South detests and despises all, it matters not from whence they came, who, in any manner, encourages social equality with an ignorant and inferior race.” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/197 "2017-08-15T20:10:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Stop your both sides bullshit. It’s way too late for that horse shit. Fucking Nazi apologist asshole. I know it’s the Pit, but you should learn to express yourself better. You come across as an unhinged, violent, potty mouth. You sure you don’t have a swastika of your own? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/198 "2017-08-15T20:15:09Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Sorry all, post 191 by **Mr. Miskatonic** is going to take me a while to unpack and reply to. > > I’ll be with you all in a bit. If it is more ‘both sides’ false equivelncy bullshit you can spare us. For the record, Vice ain’t all _that_ liberal as you claim. > **[Four Fake News Stories Liberals Gobbled Up This Week](https://www.vice.com/en/article/53nwvb/four-fake-news-stories-liberals-gobbled-up-this-week)** > > Stephen Colbert once said "the truth has a liberal bias." That doesn't mean liberals don't enjoy bullshit—including bullshit about Colbert himself. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/199 "2017-08-15T20:16:16Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > If it is more ‘both sides’ false equivelncy bullshit you can spare us. > > For the record, Vice ain’t all _that_ liberal as you claim. > > [https://www.vice.com/en\_us/article/53nwvb/four-fake-news-stories-liberals-gobbled-up-this-week](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/53nwvb/four-fake-news-stories-liberals-gobbled-up-this-week) So both sides weren’t fighting? Both sides didn’t have weapons? ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/200 "2017-08-15T20:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > You wanna show me that on ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC? I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m saying that that is the sort of stuff mainstream networks would slurp up with a straw. > > Are you suggesting that all mainstream media is engaging in a pro-Nazi cover-up of the incident? suggesting? I am saying: here is a VIDEO of what happened - where NAZIs attacked a black man for no reason except they are NAZIs and they hate a lot of people, including those who aren’t white. are you suggesting if it isn’t on the mainstream media it didn’t happen? because it sure sounds like you are [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=11)