# Heritage? Nah, just hate. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487 "2017-08-12T23:49:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/61 "2017-08-13T13:49:34Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It’s amazing to me how so many otherwise intelligent people have such a hard time with this “treason” thing. > > So what if they were traitors? They were still Americans, and (other than slavery) they embodied American values. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/62 "2017-08-13T13:49:54Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This is awesome. “Other than slavery” is in parentheses. Suck my dick you fucking turd. [Moderating] Telling other posters to duck your dick is a violation of the board’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/63 "2017-08-13T13:52:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A lot of people feel very strongly about this stuff and it might have helped to let them finish dying off until all that was left was the true racist deplorables. That’s where we are _today_. It’s been over a century and half. How much longer do you think we’d have to wait? Your choice to associate, proudly and loyally, with “true racist deplorables” and their party and their president is your own. Perhaps you should confront that decision for yourself first. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/64 "2017-08-13T13:59:58Z")
The Old South existed until the early 1970s. I would expect most white southern people born in the 1950s or later to harbor pro-Confederate views, at least to the extent of admiring the Confederate war leaders, because that’s what they were raised to believe and that’s what they were taught in schools. We probably could have done this a lot more peacefully in another 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/65 "2017-08-13T14:14:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, how dare someone bring up a topic that is currently in the news. How dare someone see racist shitheads defending the flag and get angry enough to Pit it. > > If we did that thread on rapists, it would be because rape apologists were in the news again. Would you then come in and defend the rape apologists and say the thread was a troll? Would you again push a ridiculous standard of not being able to say anything unless you brought something new to the table? > > The OP is not trolling. The OP does not post trolling stuff. Nothing about the thread indicates a desire to piss off people for their amusement. > > It’s a normal, if short, Pit OP. Oh sorry, my bad. I missed the part of the OP that tied it to a current news story. And please point out exactly where I was defending confederate flag apologists. I’ve made my views on this matter clear. Since you seem to have a problem with reading for comprehension I’ll spell it out for you: I think waving a rebel and calling it heritage is racist bullshit. Me pointing out that this is a tired subject for pit outrage does not equal me being racist. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/66 "2017-08-13T14:51:34Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Me pointing out that this is a tired subject for pit outrage… In light of recent events, it’s really not. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/67 "2017-08-13T14:55:44Z")
I think that this is a tired subject, and chose to participate in the thread to say so, har-har. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/68 "2017-08-13T15:02:05Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > In light of recent events, it’s really not. Things have gotten worse since the OP was posted so the case could be made. Still, I have no way of knowing that was the OP’s intent. It was just a “bad things are bad” post. I’m certainly not the first on these boards to point out a weak pitting effort - regardless the subject. . ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/69 "2017-08-13T15:48:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Old South existed until the early 1970s. Huh? There’s plenty of evidence that it persists today, wouldn’t you say? > [@](#): > > I would expect most white southern people born in the 1950s or later to harbor pro-Confederate views, at least to the extent of admiring the Confederate war leaders, because that’s what they were raised to believe and that’s what they were taught in schools. There are thousands of younger people doing that today in Charlottesville alone. > [@](#): > > We probably could have done this a lot more peacefully in another 30 years. When you wouldn’t be around and forced to confront it in yourself, you mean? No fuckin’ excuses, man. That isn’t what patriotism means. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/70 "2017-08-13T16:57:54Z")
I’ve got a tropism toward history, so it’s hard for me to be against statues and flags, as themselves. The use they’re put to can be indefensible, and the recent uses are. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Whenever there’s somebody out there waving a confederate flag, it’s that time. Maybe it’s time for another round of[flag education.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYRJ4SleEM) The southern battle flags start at around 1.50. I doubt it would get any traction, but at this point I’d like to see the three actual national (Confederate) battle flags used to represent pride in history with less racist baggage. Yes, I know they had the same historical baggage, but they haven’t collected the same amount of baggage since the war. > [@Flyer](#): > > . . . You’ve evidently forgotten that the Founding Fathers were traitors to Great Britain. Either celebrate both groups of traitors, or else condemn both. I agree that rebellion/revolution was baked into the founding concept of the US. From the Whiskey Rebellion to today, it’s there. Whether secession was a right or not was an open question until the Civil War. > [@adaher](#): > > . . . Oh, and don’t fuck with Dukes of Hazzard. That’s an exception and I will die on that hill. > [@BigT](#): > > . . . As for the Dukes, I would be okay with a compromise where it’s still the General Lee but it has an American flag on it, and stands for the good stuff the guy did in the American Army before his betrayal. Sorry. I can’t imagine any American flag paint job looking as cool as the General Lee. Exception to the Dukes granted. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/71 "2017-08-13T17:02:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Telling other posters to duck your dick is a violation of the board’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] What’s if it’s flying around and might hit them? Could I then tell a poster, “Duck! My dick!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/72 "2017-08-13T17:03:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The Confederate cause and the Nazi ones were absolutists indeed. It is not hyperbole to call them what they are: proponents of slavery racism and genocide. And the belief that they must be stamped out at all costs would be… clearly not absolutism? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/73 "2017-08-13T17:12:00Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > And the belief that they must be stamped out at all costs would be… clearly not absolutism? Cite where I say that? As even on this thread I point out, I also think that the authorities should take hate groups like the one involved in the killing today to be investigated and the ones conspiring to use violence to be arrested. Again, freedom of speech has its limits like when shouting fire in a crowded theater, and so it goes for the ones that scream (clearly falsely) that there is white genocide going or other things designed to incite violence on others. Or like in the matter at hand, when the extremists do resort to violence to quiet down the ones telling to the Nazis and confederate followers that they do indeed support racism, slavery and genocide by design. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/74 "2017-08-13T17:52:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He also was a high ranking US Army officer who violated his oath and fought against his country. In other words, the very definition of a traitor. I said I might give him a pass for racism and slavery. I didn’t say I’d give him a pass on treason. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/75 "2017-08-13T18:02:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not that complicated. To prevent long term animosity reconciliation was necessary. That meant not holding onto long term grudges. It seems to take longer than expected? It’s not like people are dressing up like the Army of the Potomac and having parades where they accuse southerners of being disloyal. If the memories are being kept alive, it’s the Confederate wannabees who are doing it. And that’s the relevant term: wannabee. The Confederates were notable for exactly two things: defending slavery and declaring war on the United States. If you go around wanting to be like a Confederate, you’re supporting one or both of those causes. And I vehemently disagree with both of them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/76 "2017-08-13T18:11:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Cite where I say that? Cite where I said that you said that. Not all - or even most - racists are genocidal. Most simply want people that belong to a certain skin colour to return to the area that others of their skin colour came from. I’m not, NOT, defending racism. I am saying that these people believe they have good cause to want this because they believe it will lead to their own betterment. If you take the average, run-of-the-mill racist and say to them, “Do you support the systematic extermination of anyone who is not of Northern European decent?” they will say, “No, just get them away from here.” I don’t believe that that is a sensible or reasonable opinion to hold. But it is certainly not equitable to genocide. Genocide is tossed out now as the end goal of everyone that does not support 100% acceptance of everyone (within certain arbitrary limits) in order to shut down discussion. Personally, I think that immigration improves things. I think having a variety of cultures enriches the entirety of society. I’m the diametrical opposite of a Nazi. Partly because one of the things that Nazis believed was that anything that challenged their orthodoxy must be eradicated. I don’t believe that. Canada, my country, is somewhat unique in that we revere traitors (Louis Riel) who lead armed rebellions against the country and want to remove from history those who did bad as well as laying down the foundations of our nation. Holding the above stated opinion renders me anathema in most conversations because of the naziesque refusal of the new left to accept that other points of view may have a basis in fact. This thing that says, “as soon as anything can be remotely connected to ‘intollerance’ must be condemned vociferously and suppressed” is antithetical to right-thinking discourse. As far as violence goes it is done by both sides. What ideology did the SLA have? The Weather Underground? Lee Harvey Oswald? The Unabomber? The Black Panthers? Was Tim McVie motivated by racism and xenophobia or was he just anti-government 9I truly don’t know the answer to this.) People that go tribal go tribal and that is the source of the current problem. My tribe thinks your tribe wants to hurt me so I will hurt you. And we on the left tend to forget that words are violent. It is Orwellian double-think. This current intolerance for “alt-right” ideas ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/77 "2017-08-13T18:52:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People often pull the “loyalty to his state” argument with Lee. But why is that supposed to be a defense? If my state did something I thought was wrong, I wouldn’t defend it. If I had the means, which Lee did, I’d move. > > Patriotism is ultimately loyalty to ideals. Being loyal to a piece of land makes no sense. Being loyal to a government only makes sense if that government is doing what you consider to be the right thing. Many Confederate soldiers didn’t have the means to move outside and felt they needed to defend their state from a northern invader. Keep in mind, 85% of Confederate soldiers didn’t own slaves. What they were fighting for - if you asked them at the time - was to repel the outsiders from their home. I understand that fighting for a morally-just cause sits easier in the consciences of all men, but if your family and livelihood are at stake, running away to a far-off land may not seem a tenable (or even respectable) option. Many young men who didn’t have a dog in the fight for slavery gave their lives defending it. It’s part of the tragedy of the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/78 "2017-08-13T19:02:49Z")
You know this nazi bullshit has nothing to do with confederate soldiers, right? Those confederate monuments were not constructed in the years following the Civil War. They went up in the 20th century as a reminder to Black Americans- who were incrementally, in tiny amounts, experiencing freedom. The reminder was about who the boss was. That’s what these nazi assholes are defending, the time when America was “great” and Blacks knew who the boss was. The confederacy is a convenient, nostalgic, cover. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/79 "2017-08-13T19:08:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We probably could have done this a lot more peacefully in another 30 years. King responded to that type of argument 50 years ago: [QUOTE=Martin Luther King Jr - "Letter from the Birmingham Jail] "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/80 "2017-08-13T19:19:17Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This is awesome. “Other than slavery” is in parentheses. Suck my dick you fucking turd. I second that. It’s telling that Reconstruction aside (so it was harsh) the one side that still bears the grudge is the South (some of them anyway). Lincoln could have ordered every last one of them to be hanged. He didn’t. Considering the still existing animosity he may as well have, for all the good it did. Defend traitors who by law should have been executed? Nope. We see this weekend which side still can’t let bygones be bygones, even though the losing combatants (traitors) died of natural causes (thanks to Lincoln) LONG ago. We also see this weekend which side chooses to fly the Nazi flag. So yeah, suck mine too. Choke on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=5)