# Heritage? Nah, just hate. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487 "2017-08-12T23:49:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/141 "2017-08-14T18:24:29Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > As an outsider, what confuses me about this shit is; surely there’s non-racist, non-slavery-associated stuff by which to celebrate the South? I don’t know much about the history of the American South, but the Confederate flag and important Civil War figures can’t be _it_, can it? > > I don’t understand why people don’t just celebrate the good stuff and dump the crap and crap-aligned. There’s plenty of good stuff. Mostly friendly polite people, a relaxed way of looking at life, the origin of music such as country, jazz and blues (which all were the ingredients for rock), and food that is insanely good. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/142 "2017-08-14T20:39:18Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What a lot of people see as a 19th century tradition actually has its roots in an overt push against racial equality in the mid-twentieth century. Fitting, given that their only heritage is thumbing their noses at “liberals”, by which I mean “people who aren’t precious little snowflakes”. It’s blazingly obvious none of them are sincere. They’re all just going for a response, but what they don’t understand is, they lose even if they get it. You don’t win a court case by making the judge angry. ---
**Author:** ![GreenHell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@GreenHell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenHell)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/143 "2017-08-14T21:11:01Z")
Well, Lynard Skynard wrote a song about Alabama and all tbey really came up with is that the sky is blue . . . so as celebrating things goes, there doesn’t seem to be that mucb. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/144 "2017-08-14T21:40:25Z")
> [@GreenHell](#): > > Well, Lynard Skynard wrote a song about Alabama and all tbey really came up with is that the sky is blue . . . so as celebrating things goes, there doesn’t seem to be that mucb. The sugary houses sound delicious. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/145 "2017-08-14T21:57:15Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > And a statue of Robert E. Lee in a public park is a giant “fuck you” to the descendants of Jefferson’s slaves who live in the shadow of Monticello. Maybe that is why pigeons love to shit on Lee. They are trying to lead by example. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/146 "2017-08-14T22:40:18Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Many confederate statues were erected, and many schools were named after confederates beginning in the 1940s as a reaction to talk about desegregation. What a lot of people see as a 19th century tradition actually has its roots in an overt push against racial equality in the mid-twentieth century. Maybe. But this particular statue (the R.E. Lee statue at the center of this controversy) was erected in 1924. That was the height of the Jim Crow era, and I doubt many whites were concerned about desegregation at that time. It didn’t become part of our national conversation until decades later. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/147 "2017-08-15T00:10:18Z")
Two days following the election of a bi-racial city council, the red-shirt militia seized power for themselves. Along with two-thousand other white males, they attacked the black newspaper, devastated a black neighbourhood, and killed dozens of blacks. [The president did not respond.](http://49m47r1ce5b927clot3yajgk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/GettyImages-831221856-840x420.jpg) \*Plus les choses changent, plus les choses restent les mêmes. \* ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/148 "2017-08-15T01:48:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe. But this particular statue (the R.E. Lee statue at the center of this controversy) was erected in 1924. That was the height of the Jim Crow era, and I doubt many whites were concerned about desegregation at that time. It didn’t become part of our national conversation until decades later. IMHO, the Web has made a huge difference in our perceptions of the Confederacy in general and Lee in particular. Anyone can pull up the facts about what Lee was like as a slaveowner, and pull up the secession documents of the various states that are explicit that they were seceding over slavery. (I remember a lot of this in the early years of this board.) 25 years ago, some people knew this stuff, but most didn’t. The widespread availability of the underlying facts has all but destroyed the notion of the Confederacy as an honorable and romantic but losing cause. And exposed Lee’s rep as bullshit as well. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/149 "2017-08-15T03:14:01Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > You’ve evidently forgotten that the Founding Fathers were traitors to Great Britain. True, but by and large the Poms have forgiven them and their descendants. > [@](#): > > Either celebrate both groups of traitors, or else condemn both. There is a fairly pragmatic difference; one traitorous mob won, the other didn’t. Ergo the first are freedom fighters and the second are mutineers. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/150 "2017-08-15T03:45:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe. But this particular statue (the R.E. Lee statue at the center of this controversy) was erected in 1924. That was the height of the Jim Crow era, and I doubt many whites were concerned about desegregation at that time. It didn’t become part of our national conversation until decades later. Again, it was erected at the height of the Jim Crow era. It was a symbol of white supremacy. It didn’t become part of our national conversation earlier because the nation was not in any way prioritizing the opinions of nonwhites. Do you really think that it’s only now that people of color are starting to be bothered by confederate imagery? I grew up in Virginia, I’m 50 years old and I can assure you that people have been talking about it my whole life, it’s just that no one gave a shit what they thought. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/151 "2017-08-15T05:37:34Z")
The fact that there is any debate about removing statues dedicated to confederate traitors who fought to preserve slavery is based on one principle: White Privilege. White privilege set up an entire education system and culture to downplay the ugly truth behind the civil war. It is why white Americans can consider themselves enlightened while never bothering to question why there is a statue in the middle of the park to some asshole like Lee could be described as honorable even though he enslaved any black people he could get his hands on as he led an army against the nation. White privilege is why white people can suddenly feel surprised that people are upset that there’s a confederate flag over the courthouse, or that they’re school is named after one of the founders of the KKK. White privilege is why \*\*Flyer \*\*can put the enslavement of millions of people in parentheses. When you encounter challenges to white privilege, you have a couple of choices. You can shrug and dismiss the challengers and put their ancestors in parentheses like **Flyer**. You can vote Trump, chant “build the wall” and march in spirit if not in action on Charlottesville. Or you can start to ask yourself if a lot of what you’ve been told is bullshit. Lots of cultures have been through this moment and how they reacted to it has defined their future. The Brits confronted their past and after ugliness and violence, have tried to make peace with it. The Soviets, just like the residents of North Carolina this morning, saw people pulling down statues of men they thought of as heroes, but who were responsible for the slaughter of thousands; the Russians seem incapable of making peace with their past and they got Putin. There’s no going back. It seems to me, the best way to go forward is to put to bed some of the lies white privilege has been telling us so that we can sleep at night. Lie number 1: Heritage, not Hate The confederate imagery displayed in cities across the south is very much about hate. It was an overt attempt to reinforce white supremacy. The Charlottesville statue of Lee was completed in 1924, while the resurgent Klan lynched black Americans and coincided with a donation by the Klan to Charlottesville: > [@](#): > > As it was being commissioned, sculpted, and erected, the second Ku Klux Klan was surging through the country. In Charlottesville, the local Klan gave $1,000 to the University of Virginia’s Centennial Endowment Fund in 1921, funds it gratefully received; there was a second Klan chapter for the students on campus. > **[Take the Statues Down](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/take-the-statues-down/536727/)** > > A multi-ethnic democracy requires grappling honestly with the past—and recognizing the symbols of the Confederacy for what they are. Lie number 2: Questioning the Use of Confederate Imagery is a New Movement This is white privilege at its worst, “it wasn’t until recently that I started hearing anything about confederate flags and statues and none of my friends who are exactly like me have heard anything, so this must be new.” You can bet that non-whites have been questioning the use of confederate imagery longer than last week. Again, from the Atlantic: > [@](#): > > The black press did not find the phenomena quite so baffling. “In a large measure,” wrote the Chicago Defender in 1951, “the rebel craze is an ugly reaction to the remarkable progress of our group.” That was true in the North, as well as the South. [The History of the Confederate Battle Flag - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/why-is-the-flag-still-there/396431/) Lie Number 3: The Civil War Was Not About Slavery This is the most pernicious lie of white privilege. The civil war was absolutely about slavery. That was never in question and the confederacy never tried to hide that fact. > [@](#): > > Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. Mississippi’s Declaration of Secession [http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th\_century/csa\_missec.asp](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp) There is a right side of history and a wrong side. If you find yourself contorting through all kinds of uncomfortable positions and embracing lies, half-lies and willful ignorance, you’re probably on the wrong side, but it’s never too late to get it right. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/152 "2017-08-15T11:53:59Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Lie Number 3: The Civil War Was Not About Slavery > This is the most pernicious lie of white privilege. The civil war was absolutely about slavery. That was never in question and the confederacy never tried to hide that fact. But the Confederacy’s apologists most certainly did. I too grew up in Virginia, and I’ve heard all my life that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, it was about states’ rights. And up until the past 20-25 years, that worked. You could say the war was about slavery, and I could say it was about states’ rights, and neither of us would be able to show that the other one was wrong. But as I said earlier, thanks to the Web, that’s no longer true. Anyone can Google the secession documents of the Confederate states, or Alexander Stephens’ Cornerstone Speech, and it pretty much shuts down the argument. And that’s made the Confederate flag and the statues of Confederate generals and political leaders suddenly indefensible. The Confederacy is no longer a romantic Lost Cause; it’s no longer possible to pretend there was anything noble or heroic about it. But that wasn’t true a generation ago: the pretense could still be easily maintained then. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/153 "2017-08-15T12:00:05Z")
Well, the Civil War not being about slavery isn’t actually a lie. It’s a half truth. I just read a NY Times editorial from Apr. 11th, 1861 just before the war started, and they made the argument directly that “this has nothing to do with slavery”. The argument being that the North wasn’t threatening the institution of slavery in any way, shape or form and that secession was grounded in drummed up fears. And my reading of history says the same: Lincoln had no intention of interfering with slavery. Slavery had everything to do with the South’s side of the war, but little or nothing to do with the North’s. Aside from the most ardent abolitionists, northerners weren’t going to shed their blood to free slaves. And they were even willing to make concessions to lure the South back into the Union, such as better enforcement of the Fugitive Slave law. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/154 "2017-08-15T12:04:05Z")
> **[The Policy of the Administration. (Published 1861)](https://www.nytimes.com/1861/04/11/archives/the-policy-of-the-administration.html)** > [@](#): > > The contest now waged between the Government and the Seceded States has passed beyond the limits of party controversy. It has nothing whatever to do with the issues involved in a party canvass. The difference turns no longer upon controverted questions of right, – upon interpretations of the Constitution, or upon the policy of contending parties. All these issues have disappeared. They have been swallowed up by the transcendent contest between the Government of the United States and those who would destroy it. Until that is settled, all others lose their significance. Slavery ceases to be a bone of contention. It has no connection whatever with the contest now impending. Its fate may be involved in the result of the struggle, – but it will receive its death-blow at the hands of its friends. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/155 "2017-08-15T12:07:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IMHO, the Web has made a huge difference in our perceptions of the Confederacy in general and Lee in particular. Anyone can pull up the facts about what Lee was like as a slaveowner, and pull up the secession documents of the various states that are explicit that they were seceding over slavery. (I remember a lot of this in the early years of this board.) > > 25 years ago, some people knew this stuff, but most didn’t. The widespread availability of the underlying facts has all but destroyed the notion of the Confederacy as an honorable and romantic but losing cause. And exposed Lee’s rep as bullshit as well. It might be true that people have more information on the South but I doubt that this awareness is what changed the dynamics. I think what it comes down to is that black Americans, who for so long were just trying to be recognized as equals under the law, had other priority than tearing down confederate statues. They first had to have the right to a vote, to have the right to pursue the same jobs and attend the same schools, to shop at the same stores, eat at the same lunch counter, drink at the same water fountain, sleep in the same hotels, live in the same neighborhoods as whites. You don’t even think of tearing down a statue honoring white supremacy unless you start to feel more secure in your legal and social standing as a citizen first. The election of Barack Obama as president probably went along way to serve as validation of their legal and political equality. Unfortunately, that moment and the 8-year period from 2009 to 2016 was seared into the consciousness of many whites who are (consciously and subconsciously) anxious and uncomfortable over the prospect of having to share power with ethnic minorities. As has already been pointed out, globalization, mass immigration/migration, and changing world are also factoring into the equation, but it’s the self-confidence among Black Americans that they have a newfound voice and power that they didn’t have before, and the white majority’s reaction to this realization, that are intersecting at these protests that we’re seeing now. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/156 "2017-08-15T12:27:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But the Confederacy’s apologists most certainly did. I too grew up in Virginia, and I’ve heard all my life that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, it was about states’ rights. > > And up until the past 20-25 years, that worked. You could say the war was about slavery, and I could say it was about states’ rights, and neither of us would be able to show that the other one was wrong. > > But as I said earlier, thanks to the Web, that’s no longer true. Anyone can Google the secession documents of the Confederate states, or Alexander Stephens’ Cornerstone Speech, and it pretty much shuts down the argument. And that’s made the Confederate flag and the statues of Confederate generals and political leaders suddenly indefensible. The Confederacy is no longer a romantic Lost Cause; it’s no longer possible to pretend there was anything noble or heroic about it. But that wasn’t true a generation ago: the pretense could still be easily maintained then. I think you’re right, how many times have you been at a family meal, or whatever and sat there listening to some family blowhard talk about how the war was about state’s rights? If you’re like me, too many times. The internet makes it easier to call bullshit. Not only did I grow up in Virginia, but so too did every Madmonk since we came to America in the 1600s, we’re an FFV. My great, great grandfather fought in the 17th Prince William Rifles for the south. My great grandmother (his daughter, born after the war)was alive when I was a little kid and received some kind of stipend from the Daughters of the Confederacy (he survived the war, but his death was attributed to injuries he sustained, so she got some kind of benefit). A guy in my high school wrapped himself in the confederate flag and blew his brains out on the Manassas battlefield. I had confederate money when I was a kid. I say all this to make the point that I have confederate street cred and I get it. I believed it, but it’s all bullshit. The good guys won the civil war. The bad guys lost and the more you know about Robert E. Lee, the more you realize he was a huge fucking asshole who didn’t punish rape of black girls or the lynching of black men when he was the president of a university and who didn’t stop atrocities against captured black troops when he was a general. As you note, **RT** , with the internet, there is no excuse for the ignorance. If you still believe the bullshit, it’s on you. ETA: I didn’t mean you, specifically **RT** , the general you. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/157 "2017-08-15T12:51:45Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > You’ve evidently forgotten that the Founding Fathers were traitors to Great Britain. Either celebrate both groups of traitors, or else condemn both. Do you celebrate the Rosenbergs? How about Aldrich Ames? Anwar al-Awlaki? Are you thinking of putting up a statue of Tokyo Rose in your back yard? Because if you celebrate one group of traitors, you have to celebrate ALL traitors, right? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/158 "2017-08-15T13:02:29Z")
That reminds me of something else I read in the NY Times from the period. The Times rejected any idea of secession on constitutional grounds. But they did acknowledge the exception: if you win, then your rebellion was legit. There’s a lot of “might makes right” in that argument, but also a little demcracy as well. The American Revolution couldn’t have been won if there hadn’t been enough Americans wanting independence. You also have to take into account how badly Britain wanted to keep the colonies. Here’s an interesting counterfactual: what if the American Revolution had been based primarily on slavery? What if slavery had been legal in all 13 colonies and the main dispute between Britain and the colonies was over this subject? Would that have made Britain fight harder to bring the colonies in line? I think it might have. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/159 "2017-08-15T13:09:08Z")
The North mostly wasn’t fighting over slavery (at least, at the beginning of the war), but that’s irrelevant, because it’s not the North who started it. The ones who started the Civil War did so over slavery. Slavery was, without a doubt, the Number 1 cause of the war. The Number 2 cause, meanwhile, was… also slavery. It’s like those ingredient lists that include sugar, corn syrup, high-fructose corn syrup, and honey as ingredients. It’s not until you get to Number 5 or 6 on the list of causes of the war that you find something not directly about slavery, tariffs. On another note, if you want to celebrate real Southern heritage, start in the kitchen. The best cooking on the continent is all found in the South, and if you want to put up a statue to Southern heritage on the courthouse grounds, make it a big bowl of grits. Of course, ironically, how did the South come to have such excellent cuisine? Through fusion and integration of many different cultures and ethnic traditions (including African culture). ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487/160 "2017-08-15T13:12:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you thinking of putting up a statue of Tokyo Rose in your back yard? Tokyo Rose was pardoned by a president, I believe and there seemed to be good evidence she wasn’t actually treasonous or a traitor, IIRC. I listened to a podcast about her just the other day. I could be wrong (about her being a traitor), but I know I’m not wrong about her being pardoned, eventually, by Ford. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heritage-nah-just-hate/793487.md?page=9)