# Heroes 12/8/08 "Our Father" (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336 "2008-12-09T01:12:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/61 "2008-12-10T18:15:51Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I remember watching that scene, thinking, “I guess they’re not playing by **Timecop** ’s rules…” I noticed they were not playing by TimeCop or Doctor Who rules. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/62 "2008-12-10T18:17:36Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I’m so freakin’ \*tired \*of all the time travel in this show. It doesn’t work, and it just screws everything up. Yes, it was a bad idea. Also bad was the various “accumulation of powers” power, which we now have three of. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/63 "2008-12-10T18:27:34Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Not sure how time travel is supposed to work in the Heroes universe; classic sci-fi time travel rules would have prevented Claire from being able to change her own diaper, for example. Who knows what the deal is with Hiro? Yeah, I kept expecting some of those winged beasties to appear and start eating people. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/64 "2008-12-10T18:42:02Z")
I was really hoping the Marine would get some super lame power, like the ability to communicate with cats or turn metal into pomegranites. ---
**Author:** ![Promethea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Promethea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Promethea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/65 "2008-12-10T18:50:09Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I was really hoping the Marine would get some super lame power, like the ability to communicate with cats or turn metal into pomegranites. I for one would watch a show featuring such a marine as he attempted to fight crime aided only by his transformed pomegranites and feline helpers. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/66 "2008-12-10T18:58:32Z")
> [@Promethea](#): > > I for one would watch a show featuring such a marine as he attempted to fight crime aided only by his transformed pomegranites and feline helpers. Pussy and Styx Coming Fall of 2009. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/67 "2008-12-10T19:01:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it was a bad idea. Also bad was the various “accumulation of powers” power, which we now have three of. Its only a bad idea to give them to the good guys. Sylar was a perfect bad guy in season one, and Arthur was scary enough this season. Peter was a huge mistake though, and Hiro should have only been able to freeze time and maybe teleport, not time travel. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/68 "2008-12-10T19:05:40Z")
What I always find amusing is that Hiro always boasts that he is “The master of space and time” when in fact it seems like everyone else can use his power a lot better than he can. Arthur was pretty smooth with it the couple of times we’ve seen him use it, and so was Peter back in season…1?2? Whenever he was bouncing around with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/69 "2008-12-10T19:18:11Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I was really hoping the Marine would get some super lame power, like the ability to communicate with cats or turn metal into pomegranites. That would just be _too_ cruel. Since, in the 4400, he played a character who got his powers via a formula, and his powers were: He had a red-headed girl that only he could see. She’d show up and make cryptic remarks intended to have him do stuff, but would never come clear on what or why. In fact, even _she_ remarked that it was a rather lame power. Lame powers on two successive genre shows seems rather harsh. Particularly after seeing what’s happened to the poor guy’s hairline, too. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/70 "2008-12-10T19:21:33Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > That would just be _too_ cruel. Since, in the 4400, he played a character who got his powers via a formula, and his powers were: > > He had a red-headed girl that only he could see. Charlie Brown was on _4400_ ? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/71 "2008-12-10T19:23:02Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Pussy and Styx > Coming Fall of 2009. To FOX! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/72 "2008-12-10T20:02:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Charlie Brown was on _4400_ ? Well… he was kind of a sad-sack, and I don’t recall he ever successfully kicked a football… So, yes. Yes he was. With inappropriate father-son slashyness, to boot. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/73 "2008-12-10T20:29:27Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Not sure how time travel is supposed to work in the Heroes universe; classic sci-fi time travel rules would have prevented Claire from being able to change her own diaper, for example. Who knows what the deal is with Hiro? My wife’s first response was “that’s against the rules”. My response was that the writers can do whatever the hell they want with time travel. There are no global time travel rules, so let them make it up as they go along. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/74 "2008-12-10T22:36:48Z")
I think it’s BTTF rules. While you’re time traveling, changes in the past don’t directly affect you, (at least not right away). And what’s with “classic sci-fi rules?” The only sci fi I can think of where a person can’t interact with themselves in the past is Time Cop. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/75 "2008-12-10T22:50:23Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > And what’s with “classic sci-fi rules?” The only sci fi I can think of where a person can’t interact with themselves in the past is Time Cop. As far back as _Superman_ #61, it was a standard in the DC universe that one cannot be in two places at once, so if you travelled back in time to a point in your own lifetime, you’d become a phantom unable to interact in any way with the universe except to observe it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/76 "2008-12-10T23:19:56Z")
But in _12 Monkeys_ Bruce Willis’ character clearly is seen by himself. So there! ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/77 "2008-12-11T01:21:29Z")
If you could travel into the past, the Universe wouldn’t give a damn that there were two people who were both you at different stages of life, at the same time. But of course you can make up whatever rules you want; just stick to them. The real question in _Heroes_ is about parallel timelines. Hiro and Claire changed the past, so that the mystical “catalyst” light thingy (and exactly what the Hell is that, anyway?) was put into the adult Hiro from the present day, rather than into infant Claire (as in our original timeline) or into juvenile Hiro. So that should mark the start of a separate timeline. Yet Arthur was apparently able to travel directly there from the future of a separate timeline, and back. Never mind; I think we’ve got a case of the writers monkeying with story elements they’re literally not smart enough to deal with properly. Be nice if they had an actual hard science fiction writer on the show. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/78 "2008-12-11T01:36:27Z")
It seems like once your a master of time and space (AKA, Hiro, Peter, and Arthur), changes to the past don’t affect you. For example, in Season One Future Hiro didn’t know that Claire had been saved and he thought Sylar regenerated. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/79 "2008-12-11T01:45:17Z")
They seem to be writing in a time-travel paradigm where changes to the past are not possible, but changes to the future _are_ possible. Even if those changes are initiated in the future. When Hiro has gone into the past (to save Charlie, back to meet Kensai, now to have Claire change her own diaper), events in the present preceed _as if past events had always occurred that way_. Charlie died despite Hiro’s intervention. Kensei became a legend because of Hiro’s intervention. Claire’s diaper got changed. When they’ve dealt with the future, though, it is alternate timeline city. Future!Hiro got them to save the cheerleader and change his own timeline. Future!Peter came back and mucked up _everything_, really. When Peter jumped to the future and left Irish Lassy there, he ended up preventing the plague that caused that future. I’m guessing that they’re writing as if the NOW is moving through time at the normal rate of time. Everything in the past is, essentially, unchangable. Anything in the future is subject to change. It is an idea that has been used in sci-fi before, albeit not as mainstream as some other timetravel frameworks. And it always seems to lead to tiresome arguments of how “time travel doesn’t work that way”, so boo for them choosing to go this route just because it makes their writing job easier. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336/80 "2008-12-11T05:32:51Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > They seem to be writing in a time-travel paradigm where changes to the past are not possible, but changes to the future _are_ possible. Even if those changes are initiated in the future. > > When Hiro has gone into the past (to save Charlie, back to meet Kensai, now to have Claire change her own diaper), events in the present preceed _as if past events had always occurred that way_. Charlie died despite Hiro’s intervention. Kensei became a legend because of Hiro’s intervention. Claire’s diaper got changed. > > When they’ve dealt with the future, though, it is alternate timeline city. Future!Hiro got them to save the cheerleader and change his own timeline. Future!Peter came back and mucked up _everything_, really. When Peter jumped to the future and left Irish Lassy there, he ended up preventing the plague that caused that future. > > I’m guessing that they’re writing as if the NOW is moving through time at the normal rate of time. Everything in the past is, essentially, unchangable. Anything in the future is subject to change. It is an idea that has been used in sci-fi before, albeit not as mainstream as some other timetravel frameworks. > > And it always seems to lead to tiresome arguments of how “time travel doesn’t work that way”, so boo for them choosing to go this route just because it makes their writing job easier. I hate to say this, being one of the defenders of Heroes in general, but I think you’re giving the writers too much credit here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-12-8-08-our-father-spoilers/476336.md?page=5)