# Heroes, Antiheroes, and Villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 4, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119 "2025-03-04T18:20:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/101 "2025-03-06T19:42:45Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > A good chunk of this discussion has been arguing about the definition of antihero. Without rehashing an argument that’s not going to be resolved. It basically boils down to this bit > > > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > > > They might do good things but for the wrong reasons or with flawed motivations I disagree, I think the important bit is this: > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > lacks the typical heroic qualities like strong morals, selflessness, and courage, often making questionable decisions **while still being the protagonist** Travis Bickle and Bill Munny are the protagonists of their respective movies and both try to do good (as their twisted mind sees it). _That_ is why they are anti-heroes. Despite not being good persons, the movie presents them in such a way, that you find yourself rooting for them. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Did he actually see the movie?! At no point did Munny do or say anything to imply he was remotely interested in eradicating evil. The story arc was that William started out interested only killing 'bad guys" (for cutting up a woman) for profit and evolved into him wanting to eradicate the evil he saw in the town as personified by Little Bill. Anti-hero’s motives are self-serving, and their sense of morality fall outside of the norm. You might not think what Mr. Munny was doing was eradicating evil, but I think in Munny’s mind, he was. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/102 "2025-03-06T19:48:22Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Despite not being good persons, the movie presents them in such a way, that you find yourself rooting for them. I agree that this is IMO the essential definition. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/103 "2025-03-06T19:49:46Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > , I think the important bit is this: Except we all agree on that. No one is arguing the antihero doesn’t have to be a protagonist. The argument is whether that alone is enough or doing good, heroic, things (in an unheroic way) is also required ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/104 "2025-03-06T19:52:22Z")
There’s Marvel’s Punisher, who walks the line between being a vigilante anti-hero and being a serial killer who merely picks unsympathetic victims. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/105 "2025-03-06T19:55:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > William started out interested only killing 'bad guys" ( He started out interested in killing whoever the people with the cash wanted him to kill, evil or otherwise. He ended up wanting to kill the man who killed his friend (to assuage his guilt as the real reason his friend got killed) Eradicating evil never came into it, that’s kind of the whole point of the movie. Everyone in the movie was “evil” to a greater or lesser degree. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/106 "2025-03-06T20:25:08Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Except we all agree on that. No one is arguing the antihero doesn’t have to be a protagonist. I don’t think we all agree on that. > [@solost](#): > > Travis Bickle is a seriously unhinged individual who was about to kill a Presidential candidate when he was scared off by Secret Service agents, and only became a vigilante hero by killing the pimp and other bad guy as kind of a consolation prize. ‘Accidental hero’ maybe, but not quite ‘antihero’. An anti-hero, at the least, has to be doing things that they, in their own mind, think is heroic. Some examples of protagonists that that aren’t being heroic (and thus are not anti-heroes) are Tony Montana (Scarface), Patrick Bateman (American Psycho), Vincent ( Collateral), among others. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Eradicating evil never came into it, that’s kind of the whole point of the movie. Everyone in the movie was “evil” to a greater or lesser degree. I’m happy to agree to disagree. Just because he was “evil” as society deems it, doesn’t he can’t be an anti-hero. Take Lucas McCain (The Rifleman), is he evil? Of course not. But he killed at least one person every week, for years! He was not a lawman or in any other way authorized to enforce the law or kill people. If someone acted like that today, I’m quite sure they would end up in prison. Shows frame how we view our protagonists. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/107 "2025-03-06T21:31:31Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > An anti-hero, at the least, has to be doing things that they, in their own mind, think is heroic. This part I would disagree with. It’s certainly possible for an antihero (or a hero) to have poor self-esteem (justifiably or otherwise) Dexter Morgan, for instance, knows he is seriously mentally ill and trying to deal with it in a relatively prosocial way. He doesn’t think that he’s somehow superior to all the people who aren’t murdering anyone at all. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/108 "2025-03-06T22:18:12Z")
Speak for yourself, I never rooted for Hannibal Lecter. Though I only read the book and saw the first movie. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/109 "2025-03-06T22:23:27Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > He doesn’t think that he’s somehow superior to all the people who aren’t murdering anyone at all. I don’t really understand this point. Anti-heroes don’t have to feel superior to others to act on what they feel is the right thing. They just (usually) feel that there is an injustice and they have the impetus and will to act against it. I don’t think (feelings of) superiority have anything to do with it. Although in the specific case of Dexter, it wouldn’t surprise me to know he does have a bit of a superiority complex, though I won’t argue the point. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/110 "2025-03-06T22:23:56Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > The story arc was that William started out interested only killing 'bad guys" (for cutting up a woman) for profit and evolved into him wanting to eradicate the evil he saw in the town as personified by Little Bill. I think the movie explicitly disagrees with this: Little Bill: I don’t deserve this! Bill Munny: Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it. If Munny thought he was “eradicating evil,” he’d have said something like, “Yes you do.” He’s not killing Little Bill because Little Bill deserves it, he’s killing Little Bill because he doesn’t like Little Bill, and there’s no one left who can stop him from doing what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/111 "2025-03-06T22:29:22Z")
That’s a fair point, but you also have to factor in that he feels Ned was treated unjustly and that Little Bill treated Delilah, whom he came to care for, unjustly. Regardless of what he said, I think he was trying, in some small way, to tip the scales of justice back the other way the only way he knew how. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/112 "2025-03-06T22:33:12Z")
You said they have to feel that they are “heroic”, which I think implies being superior to the ordinary run of humanity. And not every narrative revolves around fighting injustice. Walter White and Tony Soprano just wanted to get paid. I don’t think either of them believed that their activities were making the world a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/113 "2025-03-06T22:39:07Z")
The Simpsons: Homer and Bart are both antiheroes. Lisa and Marge, in the episodes where they function as protagonists, are flawed heroes. Mr. Burns is a villain. Everyone else in Springfield is a schmo who would be an antihero if they were the protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/114 "2025-03-06T22:43:28Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > An anti-hero, at the least, has to be doing things that they, in their own mind, think is heroic. So, I can’t find a single definition of the word “antihero” that contains this stipulation. Every source defines it as some variation of, “A character who is notably lacking in traditional heroic virtues.” Full stop. Merriam-Webster: “a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities” OED: “A person who is the opposite or reverse of a hero; esp. a central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes.” [Vocabulary.com](http://Vocabulary.com): “An _antihero_ is the main character of a story, but one who doesn’t act like a typical hero. _Antiheroes_ are often a little villainous.” Britannica: “a protagonist of a drama or narrative who is notably lacking in heroic qualities” Wikipedia: "An **antihero** (sometimes spelled as **anti-hero** or two words **anti hero** ) or **anti-heroine** is a main character in a narrative (in literature, film, TV, etc.) who may lack some conventional heroic qualities and attributes, such as idealism and morality. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/115 "2025-03-06T22:50:00Z")
All those definitions seem to beg the question of what are “heroic qualities”, though the last one at least tries to take a stab at it. I think most of us would consider bravery, intelligence, physical strength and resourcefulness as heroic qualities, and many antiheroes and outright villains have those in spades. It seems like it’s only _certain_ heroic qualities we’re interested in. Perhaps we could say that an antihero is a protagonist whose most significant actions don’t have what we would consider morally acceptable motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/116 "2025-03-06T22:55:08Z")
American Heritage gives idealism and courage as typical heroic qualities that an antihero may lack. Just because someone is heroic does not mean they are doing the right thing, though. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/117 "2025-03-06T22:58:45Z")
I think, though, that a hero by definition has to _think_ that they are doing the right thing, or at least trying to do so. Someone who knows they are doing evil and doesn’t care can’t be a hero. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/118 "2025-03-06T23:03:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think the movie explicitly disagrees with this: Yeah 100%. The idea anyone in the movie, most especially William Munny, is attempting to eradicate evil is as wrong as the idea nurse Ratched is “kind hearted” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/119 "2025-03-06T23:04:23Z")
I think you mean Nurse Ratched. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2025, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119/120 "2025-03-06T23:05:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think you mean Nurse Ratched I did, I just didn’t want to name the robot nurse for Futurama;) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroes-antiheroes-and-villains/1015119.md?page=7)