# Heroic sacrifices: who's got the stuff? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 10, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613 "2016-07-10T23:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/41 "2016-07-11T16:59:16Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You don’t get the top rating for returning from the dead. You get the top rating for knowingly doing something that will surely kill you, in order to protect others. I think that’s what young Potter did, and it’s incontrovertibly what Mama Potter did (and probably what Pa Potter did). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/42 "2016-07-11T17:02:41Z")
There are a couple of recent SF novels in which characters earn a solid 7. I’m gonna spoiler them, because just reading the titles will spoil the ending, given the thread. [spoiler]The less-good one was Nova, in which a girl realized she was, more or less, a genetically-engineered bomb designed to blow up a space station. Way too much teenage crush angst for my taste in the middle of the book, but in the end the book has the courage of its convictions, and she blows up the space station, killing herself and protecting humanity in the process. The better one, the most excellent one, was **Leviathan Wakes** , in which Detective Miller deliberately sacrifices himself in order to protect Earth from a terrifying threat.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/43 "2016-07-11T17:14:09Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > John Sheridan (_ **Babylon 5** _): Went to Z’ha’dum after having been informed by Kosh that he was going to die if he went there. Took along a \*White Star \*full of nukes as a last resort fully expecting to have to use them. Destroyed the Shadow capital city in a final suicide attack. Died (kinda) and revived for a defined period. Solid 7 or 8. **Babylon 5** had several that meet the test. Marcus was willing to lay down his life for Delenn, and almost got killed in the process. Then toss in the crew of the White Star who baited the trap for the Shadows, knowing they were bait, the Drazi ship that intercepted the missile headed for Sheridan in the Big Battle…hell, Londo. When blowing up the Shadow ships and killing Morden didn’t work, he ordered Vir to kill him to save his planet. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/44 "2016-07-11T17:22:16Z")
Skald the Rhymer: > [@](#): > > You don’t get the top rating for returning from the dead. You get the top rating for knowingly doing something that will surely kill you, in order to protect others. And Harry did that. He didn’t know, at the time of his sacrifice, that it wouldn’t permanently kill him. To the best of his knowledge at the time, he was going to actually die for real and for good. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/45 "2016-07-11T17:22:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that’s what young Potter did, and it’s incontrovertibly what Mama Potter did (and probably what Pa Potter did). I was just specifying tht returning from the dead doesn’t get you extra Stuff points, and if you knew it was going to happen, actually costs you some. I haven’t read HBP since it came out, so I don’t remember whether Harry knew he would come back. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/46 "2016-07-11T17:39:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I was just specifying tht returning from the dead doesn’t get you extra Stuff points, and if you knew it was going to happen, actually costs you some. I haven’t read HBP since it came out, so I don’t remember whether Harry knew he would come back. No, he had no clue about coming back, as far as he knew, that was going to be it. [The final duel, he was pretty sure of himself, so no points for that, though] I think he’s just a bit above six on the scale, as it wasn’t a completely optional choice. You-know-who was pretty set on killing him (and winning much of the fight), so Harry kind of knew he was going down one way or the other, therefore not really a full seven. But he did have an option to just run away and prolong it as much as he could (I mean, no reason Harry couldn’t scarper off to Australia like the Grangers, right?), so it’s not quite a straight six. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/47 "2016-07-11T17:45:02Z")
How about Flashman? Can fight when his back is to the wall or when his public credit depends on it; but is self-avowedly treacherous and selfish as hell - would do anything for his own survival. Maybe a 1? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/48 "2016-07-11T17:56:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How about Flashman? > > Can fight when his back is to the wall or when his public credit depends on it; but is self-avowedly treacherous and selfish as hell - would do anything for his own survival. > > Maybe a 1? I refuse to equate him with Kaylee. She ran under fire, but she was ashamed of it and wished she could top herself. I don’t think her crewmates even blamed her for it. If it hd been possible, Mal wouldn’t have wanted her on tht raid in the first place; he’d have considered living while she died a defeat. If Kaylee gets a 1, Flashman gets maybe 0.6. He’ more useful than Dr. Smith, but he’s not to be trusted. Who wants to rate Mallm Reynolds, by the way? He didn’t CHOOSE to die to save Wash in hte Niska incident, and his death was aonly technical (heart briefly stops, revived by ordinary medical means), but I’d say there’s evidence from other episodes that, if the choice had been his, he would have told Zoe to take Wash away from the torture chamber rather than him. What’s Mal’s score? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/49 "2016-07-11T18:09:04Z")
Mal gets a 5. He’s a great man…a good man…well, he’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/50 "2016-07-11T18:12:25Z")
Second Mal’s 5. IIRC there were other times he put himself in great danger for his crew. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/51 "2016-07-11T18:13:52Z")
How about Damar from DS9? Maybe starts out as a 2, but evolves into a 5 or 6 by the end? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/52 "2016-07-11T18:35:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Second Mal’s 5. IIRC there were other times he put himself in great danger for his crew. I can’t help but think that the 5 is low. In “Out of Gas,” he shows that he’s got the stuff to die fr an ideal. He is either literally uncomprehending or vaguely offended when Simon asks him why he came back to save the Tams from the yokels, as in Mal’s view, leaving his crew behind is utterly unacceptable. And he did die under Niska’s tender ministrations. I’m willing to give him a pass based on his total history in a way that I would not give, say, Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/53 "2016-07-11T19:04:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I was just specifying tht returning from the dead doesn’t get you extra Stuff points, and if you knew it was going to happen, actually costs you some. I haven’t read HBP since it came out, so I don’t remember whether Harry knew he would come back. From [Wikipedia’s synopsis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Deathly_Hallows#Summary) > [@](#): > > Harry arrives as Snape is dying, and Snape passes him memories to view in a pensieve. They reveal finally, that Snape had a lifelong love for Harry’s mother, and felt haunted by causing her death, that despite hating Harry’s father he agreed at Dumbledore’s request to watch over their son Harry and act as a double agent against Voldemort, that Dumbledore’s death was planned with Snape in advance, that Snape cast the doe Patronus to lead Harry to the sword, and that—apparently—he himself must die if Voldemort is to be killed. He accepts his death and Dumbledore’s scheming that has guided his life, and goes to seek out and be killed by Voldemort. On the way he tells Neville Longbottom that Voldemort’s snake Nagini—the last known horcrux—must be killed to make Voldemort vulnerable. He uses the Resurrection Stone to seek comfort and courage from his dead loved ones—his parents, Sirius and Lupin—dropping the stone in the forest before reaching Voldemort’s camp. Voldemort uses the Killing Curse and Harry does not defend himself. Seems a very solid 7; I don’t remember any indication that he thought he’d survive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/54 "2016-07-11T19:12:45Z")
It’s judgment calls all the way down, but I figure that Tony Stark could’ve flown away in **The Avengers** ; and that he instead went to what he thought was his death saving the city; and that he _would’ve_ died for keeps if not for the Hulk slowing his fall; and that his heart maybe stopped _anyway,_ which maybe technically means that he died before getting revived and convincing everyone to grab some shawarma. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/55 "2016-07-11T19:24:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s judgment calls all the way down, but I figure that Tony Stark could’ve flown away in **The Avengers** ; and that he instead went to what he thought was his death saving the city; and that he _would’ve_ died for keeps if not for the Hulk slowing his fall; and that his heart maybe stopped _anyway,_ which maybe technically means that he died before getting revived and convincing everyone to grab some shawarma. I don’t think his heart stopped long enough to count as death. But yeah, he went after that missile fully expecting not to come back. He actually survives not because of the Hulk per se (in that Thor would have caught him and probably landed less violently) but because he ran out of momentum at just the right moment. If he’d had a little ore, he would have kept going too long to fall through the wormhole and would have died as he expected. I’ll say 5.9. And, as his name is “Tony Stark” and not “Worf son of Mog,” hed prefer that to the 7. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/56 "2016-07-11T22:26:31Z")
On this scale, I think that Gaius Baltar ranks as a solid -1. Not only is he an evil bastard who will do whatever it takes for his own benefit, up to and including enabling genocide for the sake of some nookie, but he actually starts a religion urging everyone else to be just as evil bastards as he is. And on the other end of the scale, we have the various Knights of the Cross, from the _Dresden Files_ books. Not only are they, every last one of them, willing to trade (not just risk, actually trade) their life for a chance to save another; they’re actually willing to make that trade for the sake of their literal worst enemy. Of course, not all of them have actually died, but they’ve all shown themselves perfectly willing to do so. Of note, one of them is even willing to do so despite being completely agnostic about the existence of God and/or an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/57 "2016-07-12T00:07:39Z")
Did Gandalf know he would come back? I think he didn’t. Turning back to face the Balrog: 7. Breaking his staff: 8. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/58 "2016-07-12T00:12:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On this scale, I think that Gaius Baltar ranks as a solid -1. Not only is he an evil bastard who will do whatever it takes for his own benefit, up to and including enabling genocide for the sake of some nookie, but he actually starts a religion urging everyone else to be just as evil bastards as he is… Do you mean 70s!Baltar or 2000s!Baltar? Because the latter is all over the place. Didn’t he try to give his seat on the evacuation ship to some random old lady? And with Head!Six screwing with him all the time, it’s had to judge. Which is not to say dude ddn’t need an ass-whupping. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/59 "2016-07-12T00:49:45Z")
A slight variation on it: what significant **antagonists** qualify? I mean, sure, there are a bajillion mooks who throw themselves in front of bullets–but how many important named villains do the same? Best I can think of off the top of my head is Darth Vader, who may well qualify for a 7. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/60 "2016-07-12T01:00:26Z")
It depends on the sort of story. Villains are unlikely to be self-sacrificing for obvious reasons. But there’s any number of them who love their wilves or mamas or kids. Dr. Doom is a good man to have on your side in a fight. You just can’t be sure he’ll stay on your side. He’d never go as high as a 6 or 7 because nothing is as important to him as his own life and power, but I can see him getting killed because he was fighting to protect Latveria (or Valeria Richards) and his clever plan went awry. Magneto as written by many – I’m thinking Chris Claremont – is more an extremist than a villain. He’d die to save mutantkind. He’d die to save the Earth. Thre’s times when he’d die to save a random kid. in Robert B Parker’s SPENSER novels, mob boss Joe Broz was clearly willing to risk death to save his son’s life.If not for Spenser showing mercy to him, he’d have merited a 6. The villain addendum is a good one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613.md?page=4)