# Heroic sacrifices: who's got the stuff? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 10, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613 "2016-07-10T23:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/61 "2016-07-12T01:51:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It depends on the sort of story. Villains are unlikely to be self-sacrificing for obvious reasons. But there’s any number of them who love their wilves or mamas or kids. > > Dr. Doom is a good man to have on your side in a fight. You just can’t be sure he’ll stay on your side. . . . That was Doctor Doom’s motivation in “Doctor Strange Doctor Doom,” the graphic novel by Roger Stern and Mike Mignola. (Brilliant! Grand art, and truly gripping story…even if too much of it was flashbacks.) I won’t give away spoilers, but Doom shows all of his true colors here. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/62 "2016-07-12T01:54:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Most comic book superheroes: 8. They’re willing to do what is needed to save lives. > > However, they tend to come back from the dead, so that undermines the heroism, a little. > > (Real life policemen, firemen, ambulance drivers, military personnel, etc.: solid 10. They do it, and know full well they aren’t coming back.) > > (Okay, fine, there are a few cowards in the bunch. Sheesh.) > > Indiana Jones: 7. (“Prepare to meet Kali…in Hell!”) > > Tarzan and John Carter: 5. They act heroic, but the writer is on their side. You can’t really claim self-sacrificing heroism when there’s a Deus Ex Machina at the end of every chapter. First of all, thanks for acknowledging firefighters and cops (my dad and grandfather were both career firefighters). However, we prefer the word “EMT” over “ambulance driver.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/63 "2016-07-12T01:55:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That was Doctor Doom’s motivation in “Doctor Strange Doctor Doom,” the graphic novel by Roger Stern and Mike Mignola. (Brilliant! Grand art, and truly gripping story…even if too much of it was flashbacks.) I won’t give away spoilers, but Doom shows all of his true colors here. Doom s always going to assume that he can escape any trap, even Hell. Thus he can never reach 6 or 7; both require the character to see no way to avoid oblivion but to go forward anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/64 "2016-07-12T03:41:17Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > . . . However, we prefer the word “EMT” over “ambulance driver.” The driver’s the one risking his life…and everyone else’s on the road! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/65 "2016-07-12T03:45:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Spoiler for the very last episode of _Person of Interest_: > > John Reese - 7. Not only did he sacrifice his life to save the world, but he did so by willingly taking the place of his best friend, and died with a smile on his face. …and worst of all: He saved the world: but no-one but Finch and the Machine knows it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/66 "2016-07-12T04:03:19Z")
The sign of the True Hero: _ **Sebastian:** How do you know the Chosen Ones? “No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.” Not for millions…not for glory…not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see. I have been in the service of the Vorlons for centuries, looking for you. Diogenes with his lamp, looking for an honest man willing to die for all the wrong reasons. At last, my job is finished. Yours is just beginning. When the darkness comes, know this: You are the right people, in the right place, at the right time._ ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/67 "2016-07-12T04:47:56Z")
The point of heroic deeds isn’t glory, true enough. But it also isn’t making sure you do’t get glory and so meet the arbitrary criterion of not seeking fame. The point of heroic deeds is to make sure all the cadets in your crew get to go home and graduate from the academy, that your little sister grows up and goes to high school, that Frodo and Sam have time to get to the other side of the river. Whether anybody knows about your heroism is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/68 "2016-07-12T07:53:39Z")
Can any hero get the highest ranking when he or she knows that a) magic/the supernatural exists, and it can bring back the dead and b) there is without any doubt a soul, which means that death is not the end? I can’t rank anyone from the Buffyverse at the top because they know without any doubt that both conditions are true; the same applies to Harry Dresden or the Knights of the Cross and most comic book characters. If you have the verified expectation that at least something essential of you goes on, self-sacrifice isn’t quite as dooming as it is for someone who has nothing to expect, or can only hope for it without or even against reason. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/69 "2016-07-12T08:32:58Z")
Actually, one of the conditions is enough to make self-sacrifice less daring. And since Hodor was mentioned: he is the opposite of a self-sacrificing hero - he is a victim of Bran and the Three-eyed Raven. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/70 "2016-07-12T11:05:38Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Can any hero get the highest ranking when he or she knows that a) magic/the supernatural exists, and it can bring back the dead and b) there is without any doubt a soul, which means that death is not the end? > > I can’t rank anyone from the Buffyverse at the top because they know without any doubt that both conditions are true; the same applies to Harry Dresden or the Knights of the Cross and most comic book characters. > > If you have the verified expectation that at least something essential of you goes on, self-sacrifice isn’t quite as dooming as it is for someone who has nothing to expect, or can only hope for it without or even against reason. Sure, Buffy knew that magic was real. But I don’t thin she had any inkling tat resurrectin was possible for humans, and certainly not that Willow was able to do such a thing. She’d known a lot a people who had died, and none had ever come back as themselves, but rather as demon-possessed corpses. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/71 "2016-07-12T11:30:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > She’d known a lot a people who had died, and none had ever come back as themselves, but rather as demon-possessed corpses. Angel’s fate told her a different tale - a human was turned into a soulless monster but regained his soul. And while it could just be a soul and not \*his \*soul, the fact that Angelus and Angel stay the same character after each back and fourth gave her reason to believe that the human soul is immortal, stays intact and can be returned into a body. Besides, the proof of the existence of the human soul turns death into a transition, it’s not the end of the journey. That’d be a great relief … unless you’re Constantine, of course. But that’s a different universe. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/72 "2016-07-12T13:23:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On this scale, I think that Gaius Baltar ranks as a solid -1. Not only is he an evil bastard who will do whatever it takes for his own benefit, up to and including enabling genocide for the sake of some nookie, but he actually starts a religion urging everyone else to be just as evil bastards as he is. > > And on the other end of the scale, we have the various Knights of the Cross, from the _Dresden Files_ books. Not only are they, every last one of them, willing to trade (not just risk, actually trade) their life for a chance to save another; they’re actually willing to make that trade for the sake of their literal worst enemy. Of course, not all of them have actually died, but they’ve all shown themselves perfectly willing to do so. Of note, one of them is even willing to do so despite being completely agnostic about the existence of God and/or an afterlife. Agreed WRT the Knights of the Cross. Some have even agreed to give up their lives knowing that the creatures they were bargaining with would renege on the deal and try to kill both people. There is a bit of a supernatural control system in place though. A Knight who behaves in unknightly ways can risk losing their sword, so some of the less permanent knights are maybe 5s and 6s. The career Knights all definitely rank a 7 though. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Do you mean 70s!Baltar or 2000s!Baltar? Because the latter is all over the place. Didn’t he try to give his seat on the evacuation ship to some random old lady? And with Head!Six screwing with him all the time, it’s had to judge. > > Which is not to say dude ddn’t need an ass-whupping. 2000s!Baltar didn’t try to give up his seat, he saw that the old lady had won a seat, but couldn’t read her slip. He had the opportunity to screw her over and take her seat, but he didn’t. So he can’t be a -1, at least a 0, maybe a 1, probably a 0. He did draw a lot of attention to her, perhaps hoping that he’d be recognized and saved (which he was). And he didn’t insist that Helo keep his spot, even though he was partly responsible for the attack on the 13 Colonies. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/73 "2016-07-12T13:35:47Z")
Rick Blaine from Casablanca is definitely a 7. Sacrifices the only woman he ever loved for the good of the war. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/74 "2016-07-12T13:52:45Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Rick Blaine from Casablanca is definitely a 7. Sacrifices the only woman he ever loved for the good of the war. But to get a 7, he needs to knowingly go to his death, right? Heck, any ranking on this scale directly pertains to specifically sacrificing one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/75 "2016-07-12T14:00:02Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > But to get a 7, he needs to knowingly go to his death, right? Heck, any ranking on this scale directly pertains to specifically sacrificing one’s life. I was thinking of a related concept: what heroes sacrifice something **worse** than their own life? I don’t think Rick qualifies. He’s sacrificing having TWOO LUV in his life, not his entire life. But what if he’d actually sacrificed **her** , i.e., sent her to her death? But the “Sacrifice yourself” hero is such a common trope that villains have adjusted with a trope I’ll call “Shoot the Puppy,” in which they know the hero will give up her own life, but she’d never let the villain shoot the puppy (or the wife, or the kid, or the orphanage, or whatever). The villain wins by threatening not the hero, but whoever the hero loves. Are there any characters who sacrifice their loved ones in order to protect others? Do they come out as heroes? The best example I can think of is the Vonnegut story [All The King’s Horses](https://mrjpisco.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/all-the-kings-horses-story.pdf), in which the protagonist willingly sends his beloved son to his death in order to save his entire family. And even that barely counts, because if he hadn’t done so, his son would have died anyway. Consider also Leia, who only gives up the rebel base when her planet is threatened. If she’d refused to cooperate with I’ll Shoot the Puppy, she’d qualify, but I don’t know if she’d remain a hero. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/76 "2016-07-12T14:02:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I was thinking of a related concept: what heroes sacrifice something **worse** than their own life? > > I don’t think Rick qualifies. He’s sacrificing having TWOO LUV in his life, not his entire life. But what if he’d actually sacrificed **her** , i.e., sent her to her death? > > But the “Sacrifice yourself” hero is such a common trope that villains have adjusted with a trope I’ll call “Shoot the Puppy,” in which they know the hero will give up her own life, but she’d never let the villain shoot the puppy (or the wife, or the kid, or the orphanage, or whatever). The villain wins by threatening not the hero, but whoever the hero loves. > > Are there any characters who sacrifice their loved ones in order to protect others? Do they come out as heroes? > > The best example I can think of is the Vonnegut story [All The King’s Horses](https://mrjpisco.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/all-the-kings-horses-story.pdf), in which the protagonist willingly sends his beloved son to his death in order to save his entire family. And even that barely counts, because if he hadn’t done so, his son would have died anyway. > > Consider also Leia, who only gives up the rebel base when her planet is threatened. If she’d refused to cooperate with I’ll Shoot the Puppy, she’d qualify, but I don’t know if she’d remain a hero. It’s up to Skald to decide whether this is on topic or not, but it’s definitely an interesting sidebar. Leia lied about the location of the rebel base. She said it was on Dantooine, when it was currently on Yavin. The base on Dantooine was abandoned, so it was either a previous base site or another rebel facility. When Tarkin discovered that she lied, he sentenced her to death. So I think she still qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/77 "2016-07-12T14:05:52Z")
Ooh, wait, I got one: [Changes](http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Changes), a Dresden Files novel. Spoiler ahoy: Our Hero, Harry, has long been in love with Susan, despite the fact that she was transformed into a vampire early on. Susan maintains her humanity, barely. At the end of the book, with vampires threatening Harry and pretty much everyone on earth, Susan engages in some sneaky plot-fu, by which killing her destroys all vampires. She asks Harry to kill her; he does so, killing someone he loves in order to save everyone. Under this variant, Harry isn’t threatened with a Shoot the Puppy; he draws the gun and shoots the puppy himself. And it’s definitely a heroic act (aided, of course, by Susan’s willingness to go along). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/78 "2016-07-12T14:09:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ooh, wait, I got one: [Changes](http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Changes), a Dresden Files novel. Spoiler ahoy: > > Our Hero, Harry, has long been in love with Susan, despite the fact that she was transformed into a vampire early on. Susan maintains her humanity, barely. At the end of the book, with vampires threatening Harry and pretty much everyone on earth, Susan engages in some sneaky plot-fu, by which killing her destroys all vampires. She asks Harry to kill her; he does so, killing someone he loves in order to save everyone. > > Under this variant, Harry isn’t threatened with a Shoot the Puppy; he draws the gun and shoots the puppy himself. And it’s definitely a heroic act (aided, of course, by Susan’s willingness to go along). That’s an interesting point - to a hero, killing someone you love for the greater good can be an even greater sacrifice that killing yourself. Unlike self-sacrifice, you have to live with yourself afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/79 "2016-07-12T14:20:19Z")
Well, in certain Christian heresies - Judas. He betrays Jesus and is eternally damned for it - in some traditions, he does this knowing it is necessary for human salvation. That makes him the epitome of heroism! After all, Jesus gets whipped and goes to the cross, which is unpleasant but strictly temporary - he dies and, of course, it isn’t permanent. Judas betrays Jesus, hangs himself, and is eternally damned - all to advance the narrative of human salvation. Judas is thus more heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613/80 "2016-07-12T14:26:35Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Rick Blaine from Casablanca is definitely a 7. Sacrifices the only woman he ever loved for the good of the war. He didn’t die. You don’t get the top two rankings unless you die. Rick never even got injured [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heroic-sacrifices-whos-got-the-stuff/759613.md?page=5)