# Herr Pope reinstates Holocaust Denier
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 26, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018 "2009-01-26T04:59:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/1 "2009-01-26T04:59:25Z")
[Link](http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2474115.htm)
> [@ABCNews](#):
>
> PETER CAVE: The Vatican has stirred fury within the Jewish community after lifting the excommunication of four rebel bishops including Holocaust denier Richard Williamson.
> The British Bishop has claimed that no Jews died in gas chambers during the Second World War.
> But the Church says that inviting the priest back into the fold in no way endorses his controversial views.
> Europe correspondent Emma Alberici reports.
> EMMA ALBERICI: Pope Benedict’s decision to welcome Richard Williamson back into the Roman Catholic Church coincided with the broadcast of this interview with the 68-year-old breakaway Bishop on Swedish state television.
> RICHARD WILLIAMSON: The historical evidence is hugely against six-million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler.
Now it appears that they got excommunicated by JP II because the leader of this little breakaway sect made the other four bishops without authorization. I carte nothing about who is a bishop and who isn’t, but the same church debating whether those supporting abortion rights for women should be allowed to take communion appears to think that Holocaust denial is just dandy. A hearty fuck you to His Holeiness. (As in Hole in the Head).
And I was thinking **DerTrihs** was too extreme.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/2 "2009-01-26T05:32:26Z")
I don’t think holocaust denial is a direct violation of church doctrine. That doesn’t mean the church is cool with holocaust denial but it’s not something that will keep you from taking the sacraments.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/3 "2009-01-26T06:00:33Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> I don’t think holocaust denial is a direct violation of church doctrine. That doesn’t mean the church is cool with holocaust denial but it’s not something that will keep you from taking the sacraments.
True, but this guy was already excommunicated for other reasons, and is being let back in. None of them accept Vatican II, or in any way have recanted the actions that caused JP II to kick them out.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/4 "2009-01-26T06:00:45Z")
Just to clear some things up, Williamson is still suspended a divinis under Canon Law 1333 (paragraph 1). This means he has no church authority or jurisdiction of any kind, and he cannot participate in mass. All the Pope did was lift the latae sententiae incurred inter alia for receiving episcopal orders without papal permission.
Saying that the Pope has “reinstated” Williamson is like saying that a parole board has overturned a court verdict. You should have this thread closed before Der Trihs or someone of his ilk seizes upon it to spout bullshit and spread ignorance.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/5 "2009-01-26T06:02:33Z")
It was my understanding that Cardinal Lefebvre would have been gone anyway, even without consecrating the bishops, on account of his refusal to accept the outcomes of Vatican II.
Was I mistaken in that? **tomndebb** , a little help?
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### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/6 "2009-01-26T06:06:05Z")
I’ll take a stab at defending Pope Benny here. All he did was lift excommunication. He did not support Holocaust denial in any way, and I doubt that the RCC would do any such thing. I do think that the RCC should condemn Holocaust denial in an appropriate way, but not in the same breath.
Excommunication can be lifted, and in fact must be lifted, if the excommunicant repents for the sins that they were excommunicated for. Excommunication is not dished out for just being an extreme asshole and having a fantasy version of history. Bizarre and damaging views of history are not sins.
On edit: Liberal makes clearer that this has only to do with the guy’s status as a rank and file member of the Church, it does not affect his authority to conduct official duties. It affects his ability to get in line and receive communion with the approval and blessing of the Church.
IANA RC
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/7 "2009-01-26T06:06:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Just to clear some things up, Williamson is still suspended a divinis under Canon Law 1333 (paragraph 1). This means he has no church authority or jurisdiction of any kind, and he cannot participate in mass. All the Pope did was lift the latae sententiae incurred inter alia for receiving episcopal orders without papal permission.
>
> Saying that the Pope has “reinstated” Williamson is like saying that a parole board has overturned a court verdict. You should have this thread closed before Der Trihs or someone of his ilk seizes upon it to spout bullshit and spread ignorance.
I read a newspaper story on this online last night, and one of the salient points was that in speaking of the four men who were being welcomed back into the communion, the Pope (or his spokesman, I can’t remember which) referred to them as “bishops” leading to some ambiguity over the question of whether the Church will consider them bishops.
I’ll go see if I can find the story I read.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/8 "2009-01-26T06:17:43Z")
Yeah, I read it in the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=pope%20bishops%20excommunicated&st=cse&scp=1)
> [@](#):
>
> In a public statement Saturday, the Vatican said that the pope would reconsider whether to formally affirm the four men as full bishops, but it referred to the men by that title. It said talks would seek to resolve the “open questions” in the church’s relationship with the society.
And in my post above, please scratch “Cardinal Lefebvre” in favor of “Archbishop Lefebvre.” My apologies.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/9 "2009-01-26T06:21:15Z")
Your Times article really isn’t clear about that. Check out [this article](http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/some-thoughts-of-bishop-richard-williamson/) and the subsequent notes and amendments (especially the first response). It also seems to jibe with Wiki’s update. Just saying is all.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/10 "2009-01-26T06:40:55Z")
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time a major newspaper (even the Grey Lady) got a fact wrong in early reporting, so I’ll defer to **Liberal** ’s more recent source.
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### Author:  [@Jaglavak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaglavak)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/11 "2009-01-26T07:54:15Z")
I pay about as much attention to the pope as I do to any random ayatollah. If the man really gave a flying shit about the people in his church, he would reverse his stance on birth control.
In keeping with that philosophy, now apparently an obscure point of church rules matters more than preaching of hateful lies. Harm done? Oh well, as long as no church rules are broken. I truly believe the church’s top priority is to avoid making all those priests get a job.
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### Author:  [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/12 "2009-01-26T12:23:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> And in my post above, please scratch “Cardinal Lefebvre” in favor of “Archbishop Lefebvre.” My apologies.
You have absolutely no authority to make Archbishop Lefebvre a Cardinal.
You are _so_ lucky you took back the statement and apologized before I reported your post to the Pope.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/13 "2009-01-26T13:03:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> You should have this thread closed before Der Trihs or someone of his ilk seizes upon it to spout bullshit and spread ignorance.
What the fuck was the point of this cheap shot?
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/14 "2009-01-26T13:11:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> What the fuck was the point of this cheap shot?
Ummm, to be a cheap shot? I’ll go out on a limb and guess that Liberal doesn’t like Der Trihs and thinks that he spouts bullshit and spreads ignorance.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/15 "2009-01-26T13:25:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> Ummm, to be a cheap shot? I’ll go out on a limb and guess that Liberal doesn’t like Der Trihs and thinks that he spouts bullshit and spreads ignorance.
He has a tendency to post rants against me in threads I post in; it seems he’s progressed to pre-emptive ranting.
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/16 "2009-01-26T14:25:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> I read a newspaper story on this online last night, and one of the salient points was that in speaking of the four men who were being welcomed back into the communion, the Pope (or his spokesman, I can’t remember which) referred to them as “bishops” leading to some ambiguity over the question of whether the Church will consider them bishops.
According to canon law, they _are_ bishops. Their ordination was valid (i.e., it still had the effect of elevating them to bishophood), but illicit (i.e., it was done without permission). According to Catholic doctrine, anyone suitably empowered can speak the magic words to elevate someone to the priesthood; whether or not they _should_ do so in a particular situation is another matter.
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### Author:  [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/17 "2009-01-26T14:25:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> He has a tendency to post rants against me in threads I post in; it seems he’s progressed to pre-emptive ranting.
Hey, **Der Trihs** , stop spouting ignorant bullshit!
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/18 "2009-01-26T14:33:36Z")
I gotta go with **Jaglavak** , on this one.
Everytime I flick onto [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) or something and I see a headline which starts, “The Pope Declares …” or “The Pope Says …” or “The Pope Does Any Fucking Thing …” my first thought is … who gives a shit what the pope says?
Yes, I know, Catholics care. But when someone from a completely different club pipes up to say, “Hey now, there, Pope-a-rooni … we don’t appreciate the fact that you’re going to let someone chew on a wafer again”. What fucking difference does it make?
It’s like complaining to the Ayotollah Whoevers-in-charge that Achmed gets to come to afternoon prayers again after claiming the Archbishop of Cantebury plays with dolls. Who cares what these poeple think? For fucks sake, by this rationale, as an atheist I could host a press-conference every hour on the hour complaining about the shit that the Pope says that doesn’t jibe with me.
Is it really earth-shattering news that one more holocaust denier gets go to church again?
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/19 "2009-01-26T14:37:37Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#):
>
> I gotta go with **Jaglavak** , on this one.
>
> Everytime I flick onto [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) or something and I see a headline which starts, “The Pope Declares …” or “The Pope Says …” or “The Pope Does Any Fucking Thing …” my first thought is … who gives a shit what the pope says?
>
> Yes, I know, Catholics care. But when someone from a completely different club pipes up to say, “Hey now, there, Pope-a-rooni … we don’t appreciate the fact that you’re going to let someone chew on a wafer again”. What fucking difference does it make?
>
> …
_shrugs_
How many divisions does the Pope have?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/herr-pope-reinstates-holocaust-denier/483018/20 "2009-01-26T14:39:41Z")
The same as the amount of scabs that the dog cather in Peoria has on his ass.
What the fuck are you talking about?
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