# He's gay, so he has HIV, so don't perform CPR on him. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862 "2006-03-03T03:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/21 "2006-03-03T06:33:18Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Sheer idiocy and prejudice on the part of the police officer. IIRC though, CPR only helps in a pretty small percentage of heart attack cases. > > It was November when I took my last CPR/First Aid refresher, but I’m thinking that it’s only about 15%, though someone less lazy than I am is free to google and correct me if they like. Well, CPR by itslef only helps in a small amount of cases. However, early CPR is absolutely critical for the survival of a patient in cardiac arrest. The CPR keeps tissue, especially cardiac and brain tissue, perfused until defibrillation and/or ACLS is available. From > [@AHA](#): > > **How many people survive cardiac arrest?** > > No statistics are available for the exact number of cardiac arrests that occur each year. It’s estimated that more than 95 percent of cardiac arrest victims die before reaching the hospital. In cities where defibrillation is provided within 5 to 7 minutes, the survival rate from sudden cardiac arrest is as high as 49 percent. > [@AHA](#): > > **What can be done to increase the survival rate?** > > Early CPR and rapid defibrillation combined with early advanced care can result in high long-term survival rates for witnessed cardiac arrest. For instance, in June 1999, automated external defibrillators (AEDs) were mounted 1 minute apart in plain view at Chicago’s O’Hare and Midway airports. In the first 10 months, 14 cardiac arrests occurred, with 12 of the 14 victims in ventricular fibrillation. Nine of the 14 victims (64 percent) were revived with an AED and had no brain damage. > > If bystander CPR was initiated more consistently, if AEDs were more widely available, and if every community could achieve a 20 percent cardiac arrest survival rate, an estimated 40,000 more lives could be saved each year. Death from sudden cardiac arrest is not inevitable. If more people react quickly by calling 9-1-1 and performing CPR, more lives can be saved. St. Urho Paramedic ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/22 "2006-03-03T06:57:59Z")
As a paramedic, would you say that the half hour of attempted revival was hindered by “CPR refusal”? If he was alive for a half hour before death, what could have changed things? Was Snead capable of saving his life? If the patient was “potentially revivable” from 2:15 to 2:52, what does that say about the patient’s health prior to the incedent? EMTs were aiding the decedent less than 10 minutes after his attack, can anyone ask for much more? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/23 "2006-03-03T07:35:07Z")
> [@complaint](#): > > 1. When he realized that Claude was still unable to breathe, Snead shook him several > times, and Claude gasped for breath. > 2. Snead then immediately realized that Claude’s heart was not beating, and he hit > Claude’s chest with his fist two or three times. After several blows, Claude’s heart started > beating again. It was a hot summer day, and Claude was wearing a light-weight shirt. Snead > could feel Claude’s heart beat when he shook him and pushed on his chest. Claude continued to > gasp for breath when Snead pushed on his chest. Umm, yeah fuckin’ right. First, CPR alone for a medical cardiac arrest derived from an MI or whatever is _extremely_ unlikely to be able to effectively cardiovert a cardiac arrest from ventricular fibrilation or whatever. Second, if the complaint is accurate in stating that Claude had a heart beat, then Snead _shouldn’t_ have been performing chest compressions. This will be a complex case involving a lot of evidence, and the cop in question may well prove to be an enormous asshole, but I sincerely doubt that he killed anyone. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/24 "2006-03-03T08:24:19Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > As a paramedic, would you say that the half hour of attempted revival was hindered by “CPR refusal”? > > If he was alive for a half hour before death, what could have changed things? Was Snead capable of saving his life? > > If the patient was “potentially revivable” from 2:15 to 2:52, what does that say about the patient’s health prior to the incedent? > > EMTs were aiding the decedent less than 10 minutes after his attack, can anyone ask for much more? Well, there’s not enough medical information in the linked articles to say for certain. In general, though, brain tissue will survive 6-8 minutes without oxygen. Once any of this brain tissue dies, it’s not coming back. Therefore, it’s crucial to maintain perfusion (through CPR). IME, if there’s no CPR in progress before we get there, the patient will not survive to hospital discharge. I’m not sure about your middle two questions, can you clarify them for me? Lastly, with no CPR for 10 minutes, he basically had no chance. From the above [American Heart Association link](http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4481) > [@AHA](#): > > A victim’s chances of survival are reduced by 7 to 10 percent with every minute that passes without defibrillation. Few attempts at resuscitation succeed after 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/25 "2006-03-03T08:28:42Z")
Umm, I’m not real sure how I missed **threemae** ’s post, but my info assumes that the victim was in fact in cardiac arrest at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/26 "2006-03-03T08:33:15Z")
Errrm, maybe I’m missing something huge here or everyone has just taken this for granted, but even if he was HIV+, you can’t catch HIV from mouth-to-mouth contact right? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/27 "2006-03-03T08:51:14Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Errrm, maybe I’m missing something huge here or everyone has just taken this for granted, but even if he was HIV+, you can’t catch HIV from mouth-to-mouth contact right? No, you cannot. Unless you decided that mouth to mouth on someone with halitosis _that_ bad needed a proper clean-up first. And then you decided that the only polite thing to do would be to brush your teeth as well first. Really hard so that you were both bleeding. And then you paused your mouth to mouth for some good-old-fashioned spit swapping that made it look like porn-snowballing was going out of fashion. And you repeated this twice daily for years and years. Then there would be a slight risk of HIV transmission. But I don’t really expect that a cop that thinks, “all dem’ queers got AYDS!” will be up to the fine points of HIV transmission risk behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/28 "2006-03-03T09:26:56Z")
> [@St. Urho](#): > > Well, there’s not enough medical information in the linked articles to say for certain. Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/29 "2006-03-03T11:58:38Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > No, you cannot. > > Unless you decided that mouth to mouth on someone with halitosis _that_ bad needed a proper clean-up first. And then you decided that the only polite thing to do would be to brush your teeth as well first. Really hard so that you were both bleeding. And then you paused your mouth to mouth for some good-old-fashioned spit swapping that made it look like porn-snowballing was going out of fashion. And you repeated this twice daily for years and years. Then there would be a slight risk of HIV transmission. **threemae** , genuine non-combative question, why do first aid kits include assisted breathing apparatus, and why do first aid instructors insist that we use this apparatus? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/30 "2006-03-03T13:00:20Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Sheer idiocy and prejudice on the part of the police officer. IIRC though, CPR only helps in a pretty small percentage of heart attack cases. A quote from my father who used to teach CPR is pretty instructive, I think: In order for someone to qualify for being a recipient of CPR, they’ve met the minimum requirement for being dead, i.e. no heartbeat. This isn’t meant to say that CPR is useless, just that when you do it properly, any damage you do to the body is not going to make things worse, and **may** be able to help. (How far worse do you get from dead, after all?) Having said that, if the allegations in the suit are accurate, that idiot needs to be taken away from any position where he could be a first responder. Hell’s bells, you’re more likely to recieve a BBP transmission working on accident victims, extracting them from wrecks, than you are giving CPR. And even there, it’s a very low-level risk. **Abbie** , thanks for the call for sanity. I was about the join the lynch mob, myself. If the suit is upheld, then we can start tar and feathering this guy in effigy. But, yeah, facts would be best to have before we do that. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/31 "2006-03-03T13:06:31Z")
> [@Mellivora capensis](#): > > **threemae** , genuine non-combative question, why do first aid kits include assisted breathing apparatus, and why do first aid instructors insist that we use this apparatus? The truth, as I heard it the last time I took a CPR course, was that those devices were there to keep people from using the reasoning assigned to the Police Chief in the OP’s story to avoid giving first aid to victims. Not from any real concern about **HIV**. AIUI, Hepatitis A (And B, to a lesser extent.) however, is susceptible to transmission via spit. This is not to imply that Hep A or B are good things to get. But they are not the automatic death sentence that HIV have been percieved to be ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/32 "2006-03-03T13:17:02Z")
I’m trained in CPR and first aid, and while there’s no way you could get me to do CPR or first aid without the proper equipment, I think if these guys had the mask and gloves and didn’t do something, they’re shitheels. Gay, straight, friend or stranger, I’m not contacting someone’s bodily fluids without protective gear. Not because I fear that they have HIV, but because _I don’t know what they have._ There’s a lot of if in this story, however. If they had protective gear, shame on them. If the guy who was doing CPR wanted to do so without protective gear, then Bowman shouldn’t have stopped him. If neither had protective gear and neither wanted to do CPR without it, then it’s a shame but it’s the smart thing to protect themselves because you never know what a person, any person regardless of sexual orientation, might have that’s contagious or communicable. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/33 "2006-03-03T13:20:34Z")
One more thought, sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else. When you’re doing rescue breathing on someone, they have a tendency to vomit if air gets into their stomach (which it usually does). If your mouth is attached to their mouth, and they vomit, guess where the vomit goes? It’s not just swapping spit that’s going to be an issue. I really, really don’t want someone vomitting in my mouth. All things considered, use the protective gear. If none exists, evaluate your own risk and what you’re willing to have coming at you in terms of germs, puke, and blood. I don’t fault anyone who doesn’t dive right in without gloves and masks. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/34 "2006-03-03T13:58:43Z")
Thanks **catsix** and **OtakuLoki**. One more question, what is AIUI? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/35 "2006-03-03T14:00:33Z")
**A** s **I** **U** nderstand **I** t ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/36 "2006-03-03T14:11:58Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **A** s **I** **U** nderstand **I** t Bwaaaahahahah…jeeeez, that’s got to be the dumbest question I’ve asked in a long time. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/37 "2006-03-03T14:30:34Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I do so hope that that example of Charleston’s finest loses his job, at the very least. Charleston may well be a world away from many of y’all. McDowell County (Welch) is a world away from Charleston. It’s always an eye opener whenever I visit there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/38 "2006-03-03T14:37:13Z")
One thing doesn’t add up for me. If the police chief had a thing against gays and assumed that gays have hiv, he would most likely have assumed that Snead, a companion, was gay as well. Two homosexuals involved in exchanging bodily fluids would not be an issue for him at all. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/39 "2006-03-03T15:15:36Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > ``` > I'm trained in CPR and first aid, and while there's no way you could get me to do CPR or first aid without the proper equipment, I think if these guys had the mask and gloves and didn't do something, they're shitheels. > > ``` > > Gay, straight, friend or stranger, I’m not contacting someone’s bodily fluids without protective gear. Not because I fear that they have HIV, but because I don’t know what they have. > > There’s a lot of if in this story, however. If they had protective gear, shame on them. If the guy who was doing CPR wanted to do so without protective gear, then Bowman shouldn’t have stopped him. If neither had protective gear and neither wanted to do CPR without it, then it’s a shame but it’s the smart thing to protect themselves because you never know what a person, any person regardless of sexual orientation, might have that’s contagious or communicable. > [@catsix](#): > > One more thought, sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else. > > When you’re doing rescue breathing on someone, they have a tendency to vomit if air gets into their stomach (which it usually does). If your mouth is attached to their mouth, and they vomit, guess where the vomit goes? > > It’s not just swapping spit that’s going to be an issue. I really, really don’t want someone vomitting in my mouth. > > All things considered, use the protective gear. If none exists, evaluate your own risk and what you’re willing to have coming at you in terms of germs, puke, and blood. I don’t fault anyone who doesn’t dive right in without gloves and masks. And that’s why we consider CPR to be a sefless act of altruism to be performed only in emergency situations, rather than a relaxing way to kill some time and meet new people. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862/40 "2006-03-03T15:26:49Z")
So you would fault me for not performing CPR without mask and gloves? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-gay-so-he-has-hiv-so-dont-perform-cpr-on-him/346862.md?page=3)