# he's not allowed to be proud that he's straight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310 "2001-05-04T03:51:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/221 "2001-05-07T02:35:27Z")
Cessandra, I understand where you are coming from, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of. People have a history of spilling their guts on this board! It’s not “weird”! (Or, if it is, it’s a GOOD weird, OK?) 😃 Growing up fat, I remember not having a lot of sympathy for the thin kids. And then I found out that they get shit too. It varies, it depends, and I can’t quantify who gets more shit. But I had my eyes opened. There are people outside of your “group” that are MISERABLE. So what do you do? Do you just stand up for “your group” and tell the other group that they are on their own? Or do you, in the name of trying to ease the pain of EVERYONE, stand up for all groups who are targeted for misery? I grew up in LA, as an artsy kid, and artsy adult. This means, by default, that I hung around with a lot of gay people. A lot of fabulous creative gay people were in the arts world, at least in my circle. And I have discovered (this is just my personal observation) that my gay friends knew exactly where I was coming from, with my “social leper” emotional scars. They were very supportive. Sometimes, they were the only ones who understood. We were compadres, I thought. We all got shit for who we were, we all knew that people could be mean, and shitty. They were a great comfort to me. But I don’t see that here with some of you, and it saddens me. Maybe you just haven’t been around enough, I don’t know. But let me tell you, we social lepers need to unite, not divide! ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/222 "2001-05-07T02:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 'Uigi \* > \*\*Amulet, > I was hoping this discussion would have gone a bit smoother; kids in all sorts of circumstances are in need of guidance and counseling, but I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason they’re not going to get that assistance is that in-your-face gay wackos don’t have the common sense to back off and discuss problems in a reasonable manner. > > You’ve amply demonstrated your skills in that arena tonight. > > Ciao \*\* What the fuck are you talking about? Kids aren’t going to get counseling in schools because I took issue with your idiotic “I think gays are weird” and “I don’t understand or condone the homosexual lifestyle” bullshit? Is that what passes for logic in your world? For the record, since your illiteracy shines forth so brilliantly, the two statements I made that directly spoke to the OP were that there should NOT be special treatment accorded to gay, lesbian and bisexual teens. Of course, if you were this much of an idiot in high school, I can see why safe zones are necessary, though I would be surprised if you limited your contempt to just the gays and lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/223 "2001-05-07T03:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amulet \* > \***Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > I have not invited you to think I’m an idiot, however. (But you are, of course, free to do so.)** I did not say I DID, just that I am free to. [/quote] And you will notice that I also conceded that you are free to. To insult me, basically. > [@](#): > > Actually, I don’t know much about you one way or the other to think that you are weird, or an idiot, or whatever. “Weird” and “idiot” are not the same thing. So which is it? And, pray tell, which one of my privately-held thoughts makes you call me an “idiot”? Is it the monkey toes? The bowling? The Country Music? The grits? Because, I remind you, I never said anything about homosexuality. So why am I an idiot, pray tell? > [@](#): > > If you keep them to yourself, then I don’t give a damn one way or the other. Could have fooled me. “Thinking” something is “weird” is not DOING anything, and it isn’t even necessarily an insult. It is just an admission that a person doesn’t “get” something. So if someone wants to, in passing, mention that they think monkey toes are weird, as long as they make it obvious that the aren’t monkey-hostile, how horrible is this? Granted, it may not always be the most welcome comment, but in the grand scheme of things, how terrible is it, _really?_ > [@](#): > > If you put them up on a messageboard, then I’m inclined to pay more attention, especially if the person who puts it up has made it clear in previous and subsequent posts that the people to whom he is referring are not deserving of equal consideration or tolerance. If this person makes it obvious that they not only think a certain thing is “weird” but they also abhor it, sure, (as I have mentioned _waaaaaay_ earlier) you are certainly entitled to take offense. But _thinking_ something is weird is not this horrible, destructive thing. Perhaps actually _saying_ that you think it is weird will get more attention, and maybe it isn’t always the wisest thing to say, considering how easily people will call each other “dipshits” and “fuckwads” around here. But I think the proper response would be “what do you mean by that, exactly?” > [@](#): > > His public declaration that gays are weird, in conjunction with the fact that he doesn’t _condone_ the “homosexual lifestyle”, does contribute to an environment in which people are routinely harassed and beaten for being who they are. And as such, I will stand up and call him a dipshit each and every time. You can call him a dipshit, sure. And since I am not with him on the “condone” thing (since I find it irritating) I think you have made a case from this person’s subsiquent posts that he is not all warm and fuzzy about homosexuality. (It doesn’t mean that he would actually _do_ anything really damaging to gay people, however.) However, you called him a “dipshit” at his first comment, at the mere mention of “weird”. And I think you need to find out what they meant by that first, before you start calling them a “dipshit”. For all you know, it could be a mostly harmless (if perhaps badly timed) comment from someone who is also thinking, “Whatever floats your boat! More power to you! I think bowling and Country Music are weird too, but so what?” ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/224 "2001-05-07T03:05:47Z")
To reply to Cessandra’s direct challenge… > [@](#): > > obviously you don’t understand you dim-witted fuckwad. there is no “until they are.” there is only right now. right now any kid caught harrassing any other kid for any fucking reason anywhere on school property should be punished. end of story. But that is how things are supposed to work, right now. In Minnesota, the state where all this is takin place, it is a crime to harass anyone for their sexual orientation. It isn’t working, right now. It may work later on. In the meantime, there are hundreds of kids who need this specifically targeted type of help. > [@](#): > > right now any student should be able to ask any teacher or guidance counselor for help on any problem and not become the victim of that faculty member’s prejudice. perhaps teachers should refer these students to the counselors (those faculty members who are trained to help students), and perhaps there are times when that would not be a good idea. But they don’t feel free to do so, because they are harassed constantly. And there’s no way to know who supports gay kids, and who has reservations about supporting them, unless the teacher volunteers the information somehow… like being part of a safe zone. I believe all kids should be safe in all areas of all schools. It doesn’t work like that, **right now**. I believe it may, in the future, if we continue to make progress in supporting the most downtrodden members of our society, and find ways in which to make them feel safe, respected, and included. The safe zones are a good step in that direction. You want safe zones for every kid? Start safe zone programs. Don’t begrudge us the progress we’ve made in fighting the kind of ignorance you’re spewing. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/225 "2001-05-07T03:10:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, I don’t know much about you one way or the other to think that you are weird, or an idiot, or whatever. Oops! I read that wrong the first time. Scratch my first response to this. But I will ask, then, why did you call me an “idiot” before if you really don’t know much about me? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/226 "2001-05-07T03:18:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > I believe all kids should be safe in all areas of all schools. It doesn’t work like that, **right now**. I believe it may, in the future, if we continue to make progress in supporting the most downtrodden members of our society, and find ways in which to make them feel safe, respected, and included. The safe zones are a good step in that direction. Yep. For _all_ kids, not just gay kids. Do you think it is impossible for the safe zones to have some sort of indication that they are **very** gay-friendly, while still letting the other kids know they’re welcome as well? Or is this just a “gay kids only” thing with you? Because, as I have explained before, the pink triangle by itself isn’t going to send the message that ALL kids are welcome. > [@](#): > > You want safe zones for every kid? Start safe zone programs. Don’t begrudge us the progress we’ve made in fighting the kind of ignorance you’re spewing. Who is “us”? Who is “we”? All downtrodden social lepers, or just _your_ specific group of downtrodden, social lepers? It’s this “you take care of yours, we’ll take care of ours” bullshit that cheeses me off. I WANT to make sure that gay kids get help. I’m not gay, and yet my heart goes out to ALL troubled kids, gay or not. I am all for a system that makes sure that gay kids KNOW they are welcome to talk. I just want the other social lepers out there to know that they are _specifically_ included as well. ---
**Author:** ![flesh99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de0a6/32.png) [@flesh99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flesh99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/227 "2001-05-07T03:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\* > But that is how things are supposed to work, right now. In Minnesota, the state where all this is takin place, it is a crime to harass anyone for their sexual orientation. It isn’t working, right now. It may work later on. In the meantime, there are hundreds of kids who need this specifically targeted type of help._\* > The the police should be called when a kid is harrassed, and the safe zones should have the pink triangle removed and made open to all. > > > [@](#): > > > > right now any student should be able to ask any teacher or guidance counselor for help on any problem and not become the victim of that faculty member’s prejudice. perhaps teachers should refer these students to the counselors (those faculty members who are trained to help students), and perhaps there are times when that would not be a good idea. > > But they don’t feel free to do so, because they are harassed constantly. And there’s no way to know who supports gay kids, and who has reservations about supporting them, unless the teacher volunteers the information somehow… like being part of a safe zone. > > I believe all kids should be safe in all areas of all schools. It doesn’t work like that, **right now**. I believe it may, in the future, if we continue to make progress in supporting the most downtrodden members of our society, and find ways in which to make them feel safe, respected, and included. The safe zones are a good step in that direction. > > You want safe zones for every kid? Start safe zone programs. Don’t begrudge us the progress we’ve made in fighting the kind of ignorance you’re spewing. > \*\* You are again showing that you are bigotted towards anything that is not your cause. You have left out the quotes that anyone has made about how badly they were treated or refered to your statistics showing that gay kids get picked on. Not a single one of us has said gay kids don’t need help. We have said that there are other groups who need help, and implied, maybe even the same amount of help. If this offends you, then you need to come back to reality. Not a single one of the people you have attacked have said anything more than the fact that these zones are exclusionary, and we have proved it. You are quickly starting to sound like a hatemonger, and I know, at least I hope that you are too intelligent to not see the points that have been made over and over and over and over. Not a single one of us has said that we don’t like gays, in fact many of us have pointed out that we have lots of gay friends. I do not use the word friend lightly, I use it to mean someone that I can honestly say that I love. You are so blinded by your cause you cannot even admit that there are kids who these zones would make feel unwelcome and are willing to leave then out in the cold, you heartless prick. ---
**Author:** ![flesh99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de0a6/32.png) [@flesh99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flesh99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/228 "2001-05-07T03:23:45Z")
Screwed up a quote tag, and the first word is supposed to be “Then”…fucking oops ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/229 "2001-05-07T03:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Actually, I don’t know much about you one way or the other to think that you are weird, or an idiot, or whatever. > > Oops! I read that wrong the first time. Scratch my first response to this. But I will ask, then, why did you call me an “idiot” before if you really don’t know much about me? I don’t recall anywhere that I called you an idiot. What I think you are taking as me calling you an idiot was when I said “you are free to think anything is weird, and I am free to think you are an idiot if you do” or something to that effect. But I didn’t actually call YOU an idiot. I was speaking using the general you, my apologies for not making that one clear. And “gays are weird” in conjunction with his subsequent posts it’s clear that 'Uigi has some issues with homosexuality. But “gays are weird” in conjunction with his previous posts it’s clear that he is a dumbass, given the context of the thread in which he said it. The subsequent posts just told me he is an intolerant dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/230 "2001-05-07T03:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cessandra \* > **are you saying that high schoolers are incapable of understanding that they shouldn’t harrass eachother, period? because i’m pretty sure that occured to me at age 5, when my mother beat my ass for beating up my little brother. you just don’t do that sort of shit.** I’m not saying _all_ high schoolers are incapable of understanding they shouldn’t harass each other. But I went to high school with kids that were. My stepdaughter, niece and nephews go to school with kids that are. And as for actually teaching kids about tolerance, I am strongly opposed to sending the message through physical abuse. Your mother made a mistake there. > [@](#): > > **how in the hell can it be wrong to insist that all students with problems be helped like that?** It fucking _isn’t_. It is wrong, however, to insist that faculty members remove a symbol that specifically _states_ “Here you will find toleration for the expression of your feelings.” The pink triangle is a message of solidarity and support and any child who feels excluded because of that probably needs to seriously examine his or her feelings towards homosexuality in the first place. > [@](#): > > **yes, he may be a twit. but his shirt didn’t put down gays or bis.** Yes it fucking _did_. “Straight Pride” is hate speech, plain and simple. > [@](#): > > **it didn’t use any defamatory language. it didn’t call for the harrassment of anyone. the logo on his shirt was about as passive as you can get while still believing that being straight is better. and as fucked up as the idea is that he is better than anyone, he has a right to believe that.** It may have been passive but it opens the door for less passive forms of harassment. “If Elliot can wear a ‘Straight Pride’ t-shirt and get away with it,” the more homphobic bullies among the students think, “then we should be able to get away with harassing students we think are gay a little more aggressively.” Anyone who remembers high school knows how the more prickish bullies can get away with pulling shit if nobody’s looking. Or sometimes even if somebody is. > [@](#): > > **i will entirely give up this debate when you explain to me how wearing a shirt infringes on anyone else’s rights.** It makes for a more hate-filled atmosphere and a less secure environment for the targets. They have a right to a harassment-free school day and t-shirts that provoke harassment infringe upon that right. > [@](#): > > **not in my high school it wasn’t. see, we had this thing where harrassing other students was grounds for punishment.** So perhaps Elliott Chambers would have suffered the same punishment in your high school. And rightly so! > [@](#): > > **and i don’t give a fuck if you think it’s condescending to say so, but lots of our friends are gay. some of my friends in high school were gay. i see that as proof that we are not bigots.** No, I see the your reaction over a student suspended for hate speech as proof that you are someone who doesn’t fully understand the nature of oppression, and since you exist somewhat comfortably with some gay people, then oppression doesn’t happen. Let me ask you a couple questions. How comfortable do you feel discussing sex with your gay friends? How comfortable do you feel if they point out an attractive man they see? What in heck makes you so uncomfortable about the thought of seeing a pink triangle posted in the window of a classroom door? We’re all agreed that safe zones should be open to everyone, and some of us here agree that the pink triangle is a symbol of toleration and understanding. Why take it down? > [@](#): > > **it upsets me to know end to hear you call him a bigot when he’s said and done nothing to deserve it.** And does taking offense at hate speech and supporting its removal from a school environment merit calling us bigots? Your friend **flesh99** seems to think so. > [@](#): > > **you are calling him a bigot simply because he feels that a problem should be dealt with differently than you do. you are _judgeing_ him based on nothing. you are acting like a bigot yourself.** We are judging him on the quality of his ideas, which from my standpoint are pretty piss-poor. **flesh99** doesn’t see a problem with the existence of hate speech in school - in fact, he doesn’t think there’s a problem to be dealt with at all. He’s not advocating a different approach to the problem, he wants to keep it there. He believes (like you do) that people have a right to hate. The only reason you’d want to reserve the right to hate someone for any reason whatsoever is because you actually have someone you want to hate. And the only people who want to hate someone are… bigots. > [@](#): > > \*\*in high school, i didn’t feel like i could tell anyone. nobody cared. my parents didn’t care. my grandparents didn’t understand. the one school counselor i tried to talk to betrayed me. > > to this day i would feel uncomfortable talking to a teacher in a “safe zone” for gays. it’s fucking hard enough for me to think that anyone – even flesh who holds me when i start crying in the middle of the night for no reason – cares. i _still_ feel that my problems are not important enough; i would _not_ be able to convince myself that a safe zone teacher wanted to help me.\*\* I am truly sorry you were brought up in such an environment. But it doesn’t validate the argument that the pink triangle focuses solely on gay and lesbian students. Just because you _feel_ that way doesn’t make it so. An unpleasant truth, though you do admit this. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/231 "2001-05-07T03:47:26Z")
I’m not Cessandra, but I want to comment > [@](#): > > It is wrong, however, to insist that faculty members remove a symbol that specifically states “Here you will find > toleration for the expression of your feelings.” Huh? No, I personally don’t want anything that makes sure gay kids KNOW they are welcome removed. If there could be some way that a symbol could be devised which included the pink triangle, along other things, so that ALL kids knew they were welcome, I think that would be fine. But, as I said before, the pink triangle all by its lonesome isn’t doing that. > [@](#): > > The pink triangle is a message of solidarity and support and any child who feels excluded because of that probably needs to seriously examine his or her feelings towards homosexuality in the first place. What? Did you read my posts? (And I think Cessandra touched upon it too.) I can see myself as a kid interpreting a pink triangle as somewhere where a specific group of kids are welcome - kids with deep concerns that are more significant than my own problems. And I might stay away out of deference to that, or because I decided that my problems weren’t “important enough”. Now while this is screwed up, I don’t think it’s homophobic, is it? And since some kids would come to the conclusion that they aren’t “good enough” to be included in the “safe zone”, isn’t this more evidence that they need help, and need to be included? ---
**Author:** ![ryoushi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@ryoushi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryoushi)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/232 "2001-05-07T04:13:14Z")
Problem is, all kids _aren’t_ welcome in these “safe zones”. These teachers have chosen to be known as people who will not have any prejudices against gay kids who need help (I thought the OP implied that. Any objections?). This doesn’t mean they’ll give help to anyone (unfortunately). Some could be biass against certain religions or races. All the signs say is that they’re not homophobes. Maybe the teachers who don’t feel uncomfortable talking with most should put up the “Not Elliot Chambers Safe Zone”. Maybe the teachers who aren’t racist could put up safe zones that reflect their beliefs. It’s up to them what they want to be approached about, and by who. Assuming these teachers are tolerant of everyone just because they’re tolerant of one group isn’t going to work. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/233 "2001-05-07T04:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amulet \* > \*\*'Uigi… > > You are free to think whatever you like. I am also free to think you are an asshole for thinking whatever you like. And you are free to think I am an uptight bitch for thinking you are an asshole for thinking whatever you like. And so on, _ad infinitum_. This is how America works. Ain’t it grand? > > \*\* The great thing about America is that you can be as wrong as you want to be and I can be as right as I want to be. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/234 "2001-05-07T05:07:59Z")
This is insane. Look, if I put up a sign on my door saying Se habla español, I can’t conceive of someone understanding that to mean “no se habla inglés.” Maybe I’m just a stupid cocksucker, but I’m failing to see how saying “this is a place where the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered are respected and protected” means “the same does not go, however, for anybody else”. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/235 "2001-05-07T05:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*This is insane. Look, if I put up a sign on my door saying Se habla español, I can’t conceive of someone understanding that to mean “no se habla inglés.” > > Maybe I’m just a stupid cocksucker, but I’m failing to see how saying “this is a place where the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered are respected and protected” means “the same does not go, however, for anybody else”. \*\* A-_fucking_-men. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/236 "2001-05-07T05:25:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > Maybe I’m just a stupid cocksucker, but I’m failing to see how saying “this is a place where the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered are respected and protected” means “the same does not go, however, for anybody else”. Once again, did anyone read my post? I think it is entirely possible that a troubled kid might take such a sign to mean that their problems were not _specifically_ covered. I don’t think that the kids would assume that they would be booted out if they were to walk into a gay “safe zone”, but on the other hand, these signs are here for a reason, and kids see that. I am just telling you - in my warped little teenage mind, I can clearly see myself interpreting such a sign as meaning that these “safe zones” are for specific kids with specific problems. Problems more serious than my own. And that I should show that deference, and leave the teachers to their important business of helping gay kids. And, after all, _my_ problems are not as “serious”, so I can go elsewhere. That’s how I could see it. And all I’m saying is, how is it hurting you, or anyone else to add something to the sign to make sure all kids know that they are ALL welcome? Some of you are acting that if the pink triangle isn’t the _only_ thing there, that it’s just a no-go. I want _all_ kids to make sure they know they are welcome. And I’ve given my reasons why. Just because _you_ wouldn’t interpret the signs that way, doesn’t mean that other (seriously depressed) kids might see it that way. If you don’t want to believe that, fine. But it doesn’t make it not so, and it doesn’t mean that there are real kids out there who have interpreted these signs in just this way. But hey - so what? You take care of “yours”, and leave us to take care of “ours”, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/237 "2001-05-07T05:27:43Z")
Here’s my challenge. The argument against the safe zones can be, I believe, summed up as concern that some kids who aren’t gay might feel excluded from the help offered to gay kids, if the symbol used to designate the safe zones is the pink triangle. Want a solution? Great. Somebody here come up with a symbol that can be universally recognized to represent universal tolerance without reservation. Make up wording for a sticker that would make sure that every kid in a school zone would know, for certain, that they could reasonably expect to be treated with respect within this safe zone, and that the teacher has a considerate attitude towards their particular needs. Make sure it cannot be misinterpreted, by anyone. Do that, and I will support you completely. I’ll personally lobby for your program. I’ll lobby to make them available to every school in my city. Until then, these safe zones are a huge step forward from what is available when I was in school. It’s a step towards making all kids feel safe in schools. Propose a better solution, or shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/238 "2001-05-07T05:42:58Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > [@](#): > > Propose a better solution, or shut the hell up. I can point out a flaw in the current system, you know. Why should I shut up? Even if I don’t have a completely developed alternative, I am entitled to point out when I see that the current way of doing is fraught with problems. I don’t _have_ to “shut up” just because you want to “take care of yours” and you don’t want to hear any dissenting point of view. I do have a vague idea of a sticker - it would include a pink triangle, and, I dunno, maybe some different nationality flags, or cartoons of all different-looking kinds of kids. With some sort of wording to the extent of, “ALL are welcome without fear of judgment, yadda yadda.” There, I have provided some sort of suggestion. It’s vague, half-baked, but at least it includes the idea that more than just _one_ group is represented. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/239 "2001-05-07T05:59:11Z")
Instead of having contempt for a flawed system, I think I’ll support the people making an effor to make life better for kids. The reason you should shut the hell up is that you’re not helping anybody by insisting on impossible criteria for all-inclusive social programs. The safe zone programs, however, are helping people. Maybe they need improvement. If you feel they do, then work to improve them. I will indeed take care of my own. I understand the problems of gay youths, having been one, better than I understand the problems faced by urban black youth, or teenage mothers, or conservative christians, or any other group in need of support. I can use my experience best if I target a group whose needs I understand. Because I can’t help everybody. No-one can. If we all work to make a difference, where we count most, then we’re getting somewhere. If we all sit around nitpicking each other’s efforts to death, though, we’re not helping. So shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310/240 "2001-05-07T06:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > Instead of having contempt for a flawed system, I think I’ll support the people making an effor to make life better for kids. Sheesh. Why don’t you unwind a little? I wanted everyone to feel included. And apparently you don’t want to hear it, fine. But I won’t shut up. > [@](#): > > The reason you should shut the hell up is that you’re not helping anybody by insisting on impossible criteria for all-inclusive social programs. The safe zone programs, however, are helping people. Maybe they need improvement. If you feel they do, then work to improve them. Point me the way, I will try. What “impossible” criteria have I suggested? That all kids feel included? Why is this impossible? Besides, what exactly have _you_ done to help the system be better, other than to tell me to shut up with my concerns about non-gay kids possibly feeling excluded with the current system? > [@](#): > > I will indeed take care of my own. I understand the problems of gay youths, having been one, better than I understand the problems faced by urban black youth, or teenage mothers, or conservative christians, or any other group in need of support. I can use my experience best if I target a group whose needs I understand. Fine and dandy. But why do you resist the idea that these zones can be altered so that other kids need to be represented as well? I am not asking for anything to be taken away, just things to be added. I have even given you a half-baked idea for a sticker. And you don’t really care. You want me to “take care of my own”, and you also want me to shut up. Fine. That’s a mighty find compassionate attitude, fella. > [@](#): > > Because I can’t help everybody. No-one can. But you can stop getting so upset and resistant to our suggestions for more _inclusion_. We don’t want anything _taken away_ from “yours” - got it? > [@](#): > > If we all sit around nitpicking each other’s efforts to death, though, we’re not helping. I don’t think I’m “nitpicking”, I have been quite specific with my concerns. I don’t want to exclude anyone. I don’t think my suggestion will make things _worse_. I don’t want gay kids left on the curb, forgotten and ignored. So I don’t know why you are resisting my concerns, or my suggestions. > [@](#): > > So shut the hell up. No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hes-not-allowed-to-be-proud-that-hes-straight/64310.md?page=13)