# Hey antivaxers, suck on this **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290 "2011-07-25T18:07:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/101 "2011-08-06T14:47:44Z")
> **[How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed](https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full)** > > In the first part of a special BMJ series, Brian Deer exposes the bogus data behind claims that launched a worldwide scare over the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine, and reveals how the appearance of a link with autism was manufactured at a London... Here is the journal article, fully cited, that supports the claim of fraud. I can’t go into individual’s medical records, but I can trust a cited scientific journal. Eta: for the record, this is the journal article referred to in the previously linked popular press article. Hardly the author “making up” anything. Just summarizing a research article for the lay person. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/102 "2011-08-06T15:01:38Z")
I think he did sue already, and he lost. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/103 "2011-08-06T15:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The report also alleges that Wakefield falsified timeliness and when investigators showed Wakefield’s study to parents of the children involved, some claimed he misrepresented their stories. > Perhaps most damagingly, the report claims Wakefield developed his autism vaccine theory only after he was hired by lawyers planning to sue vaccine makers. BMJ claims he was paid more than half-a-million dollars for his efforts. > On Wednesday, Wakefield fired back. Speaking to [CNN’s Anderson Cooper](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/06/autism.vaccines/?hpt=T1), he claimed the report’s author was “a hit man who has been brought in to take me down” by big pharma. > According to the network, Deer signed a disclosure form claiming he has no financial interest in the matter, but freely admits he was paid by BMJ for his reporting. > “That’s what journalists do,” he told CNN. > Last year, the Lancet formally retracted Wakefield’s study. Ten of the 13 authors had earlier done the same. Wakefield has since been stripped of his medical license in Britain. > But for Wakefield’s supports, the battle drags on. > “I cannot imagine for a second that Dr. Wakefield would have any reason to falsify data,” Wendy Fournier, president of the National Autism Association,[told CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/06/autism.vaccines/?hpt=T1). “He’s a man of integrity and honesty and truly wants to find the answers for millions of children who have been affected by autism.” [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763\_162-20027552-10391704.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20027552-10391704.html) The evidence of filing a patent is pretty easy to show. Why no evidence? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/104 "2011-08-06T15:11:35Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763\_162-20027552-10391704.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20027552-10391704.html) > The evidence of filing a patent is pretty easy to show. Why no evidence? What patent are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/105 "2011-08-06T15:25:24Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What patent are you referring to? How about [this one](http://briandeer.com/mmr/1998-vaccine-patent.pdf) naming Wakefield as one of the inventors of a MMR vaccine. PDF link. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/106 "2011-08-06T15:26:22Z")
The one mentioned in the OP. Hell, shouldn’t that be a requirement before posting in a thread? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/107 "2011-08-06T15:27:33Z")
OP = Opening Post Just in case ignorance is rampant. I’m pretty used to people not reading, but c’mon. It was the first thing I responded to. I even quoted the OP to make it easy to follow. Throw me a bone here. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/108 "2011-08-06T15:41:30Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The one mentioned in the OP. Hell, shouldn’t that be a requirement before posting in a thread? Charming. I read the- what did you call it- Oh- Pee? :rolleyes: a while ago and forgot. My bad frankly I thought you were referring to the link you directly quoted, which was referencing the current conversation. Any comment on the articles I spent time hunting down for you to counter your bizarre claims that MMR- autism link was a conspiracy theory? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/109 "2011-08-06T15:43:22Z")
And there’s your evidence, the very patent application for a competing vaccine [that Wakefield previously denied submitting](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm). Note how in Wakefield’s patent filing he claims that the existing MMR vaccine causes inflammatory bowel disease and autism (allegations without merit). So much for the argument by Wakefield’s supporters that his notoriously flawed Lancet study was just a small survey of gut problems in autistic patients and that Wakefield himself never intended to make sweeping claims about the MMR vaccine causing autism. The evidence is solid that not only did Wakefield take in huge sums of money from lawyers hoping to sue the government over alleged vaccine damage, but Wakefield also hoped to profit from the fallout over the MMR vaccine by marketing his competing version. It’s also interesting that Wakefield’s associate in the patent filing (as “co-inventor”) is Hugh Fudenberg, another researcher with a, um, [checkered past](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/08/bill_maher_antivaccination_wingnut.php). _“In November 1995, the South Carolina Medical Board concluded that Fudenberg was “guilty of engaging in dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct,” and he was fined $10,000 and ordered to surrender his license to prescribe controlled substances (narcotic drugs). His medical license was also placed on suspension. In March 1996, he was permitted to resume practice under terms of probation that did not permit him to prescribe any drugs. His medical license expired in January 2004; and in March 2004, he applied to have it reinstated. However, after a hearing in which the Board considered a neuropsychatric report issued in 2003, Fudenberg agreed to remain in a “retired” status and withdrew his application for reactivation of his license.”_ None of this is a “conspiracy theory”. It’s well-documented fact. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/110 "2011-08-06T15:47:43Z")
If multiple people were involved, and it was kept secret, it is an actual conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/111 "2011-08-06T15:48:16Z")
My Internet access sucks here in the boonies where I’m on vacation. Missed edit window due to freakish slow loading. MMR - autism FRAUD link. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/112 "2011-08-06T15:51:23Z")
Where does it show he denied filing a patent? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/113 "2011-08-06T15:58:51Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Where does it show he denied filing a patent? [Here](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/mmr-questions.htm). Quoted statement by Dr. Wakefield. > [@](#): > > no vaccine or anything resembling a vaccine was ever designed, developed or tested by me or by any of my colleagues at the Royal Free Hospital; > > it has never been my aim or intention to design, produce or promote a vaccine to compete with MMR; > > my genuine concerns about the safety of MMR are wholly unrelated to any desire or opportunity to develop a competing vaccine; Just for fun, 1997 [patent application](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm) from Royal Free. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/114 "2011-08-06T16:00:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > [http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full](http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full) > > Here is the journal article, fully cited, that supports the claim of fraud. Look, that is the same person who wrote the story claiming all of it. You can’t use a story that is being challenged to back up the story being challenged. OK you can, but it’s worthless. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/115 "2011-08-06T16:01:55Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Here](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/mmr-questions.htm). Quoted statement by Dr. Wakefield. Again, you are quoting the reporter who was paid to write the article to support the article. > [@](#): > > The claim appears to be that, whilst at the Royal Free Hospital, I was developing a new vaccine to compete with MMR and that I conspired to undermine confidence in MMR vaccine in order to promote this new vaccine, and that this represented a conflict of interest. This is untrue. > > The facts are that: > no vaccine or anything resembling a vaccine was ever designed, developed or tested by me or by any of my colleagues at the Royal Free Hospital; > > ``` > it has never been my aim or intention to design, produce or promote a vaccine to compete with MMR; > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/116 "2011-08-06T16:06:36Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Again, you are quoting the reporter who was paid to write the article to support the article. That was from a statement made by Wakefield that was quoted by the reporter. Again, that was a statement from WAKEFIELD. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/117 "2011-08-06T16:57:20Z")
I know, I quoted it. It’s quite interesting, all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/118 "2011-08-06T17:37:42Z")
What’s the matter, you’re not getting enough attention in your nuclear trainwreck thread so you decided to come troll this one? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/119 "2011-08-06T18:35:16Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The word “herd” is not in that reference at all. The way one creates herd immunity was howevr. > [@](#): > > So you’d rather achieve herd immunity by exposing children to the real disease rather than preventing it from happening in the first place? And you bristle at the accusation that you are an anti-vaxer. Just what is your problem? I have no problem - I believe I’ve been quite clear on that. Your problem is that you don’t seem to be able to read anything that appears to be against one of your hot buttons without inserting things that haven’t been said. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Is that the big issue for you? “The government is telling me to do this and I don’t wanna, so THERE!” As I have said, in this case there is no big issue for me. I merely point out that many times we’ve been told by TPTB that such-and-such is safe and good for you, only to find out it ain’t true. Therefore, I do not mindlessly trust all that they claim. > [@](#): > > Historically that _has_ been one of the motivating factors for antivaxers, which of course you’re not, despite voicing the same prejudices and failed arguments they commonly express. That because that I don’t trust the government and big business? Yeah, I think you’ll find lots of those sorts of folks out there who are not anti-vaxers. > [@](#): > > :dubious:You should care, unless you’ve been granted an exemption from all the conditions [that could render you immunosuppressed](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00023141.htm) and susceptible to infectious diseases you might contract from unvaccinated children. Well, since I’m extremely unlikely to get most of that, and since I could easily get any number of other things that are not vaccinated against, I don’t think I’ll spend much time worrying about it. > [@](#): > > Speaking of herd immunity as **curlcoat** defines it, I suppose it’s too bad we’ve eradicated smallpox via immunization, This is a perfect example of how you jump to a completely erroneous conclusion. Or you have no idea the difference between chickenpox and smallpox, take your pick. > [@](#): > > _“There is some variation of opinion within the anti-vaccinationists, but not much. Some claim that vaccines do not work at all, while other acknowledge some benefit. Some try to be coy by saying they are just asking questions (sure, like the 9/11 truthers are “just asking”), while others come right out and make demonstrably false claims, like vaccines cause autism. But they all cluster around the opinion that vaccines are toxic (in some way) and that they cause harm.”_ > > At least be honest about where you’re coming from, **curlcoat**. To this point you’ve shown yourself to be both ignorant _and_ dishonest. :rolleyes: I love it. Because I asked questions, I must be something (you consider) evil, eh? No wonder we have so many sheeple out there these days. FTR, vaccines given to pets haven been proven to be toxic and cause harm at times. If that information doesn’t cause you pause and give you any desire to check into what they are pumping into your children, then that is your choice. However, that doesn’t make me some fringe nutter no matter how many times you want to repeat it. Also FTR, as I’ve said before, I give some vaccinations to my pets, and I also have had some myself, including a tetnus shot when I was plenty old enough to say no. On top of that, I don’t have any children to make vaccination choices about. Hardly anti-vax, eh? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/120 "2011-08-06T18:57:47Z")
You want to really wipe out a dangerous and loathsome disease? Force everyone to get treated for Syph and Gonorrhea. All at the same time. Wipe them off the face of the planet. Now that would be a good use of medical resources. Don’t have it? No problem, just get tested at the same time. Of all the communicable diseases that would be easy to eradicate, nobody seems to even want to discuss eliminating the really bad shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290.md?page=7)