# Hey antivaxers, suck on this **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290 "2011-07-25T18:07:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/121 "2011-08-06T20:03:15Z")
Currently, there are no vaccines against gonorrhea or syphilis. What’s more, those two diseases are actually fairly hard to catch, and fairly easy to prevent. Since there’s no vaccine or cure for HIV, either, and the prevention for HIV infection is the same for other STDs, right now the best prevention for STDs is condom use. It’s damned easy to catch chicken pox, or mumps, though. You don’t have to exchange body fluids to get infected. Since safe, effective vaccines for chicken pox and mumps ARE available, we should require everyone to get vaccinated, unless someone has a valid MEDICAL reason not to be vaccinated. We’ve wiped out one dangerous and loathsome disease by vaccination. We can do it with other diseases, IF we’re willing to commit the resources to do so, and IF we have a vaccine available. We don’t have the vaccine available for most STDs. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/122 "2011-08-06T20:04:38Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Currently, there are no vaccines against gonorrhea or syphilis. Is that because it’s impossible to do? Or that there is no money in it? What? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/123 "2011-08-06T20:31:35Z")
I don’t know. I just did a quick Google, and found several sites that said that there’s currently no vaccine for either disease. It might be possible, might be impossible with our current medical technology. I’d imagine, though, that there would be plenty of money in it. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/124 "2011-08-06T20:38:10Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Is that because it’s impossible to do? Or that there is no money in it? What? Not as much incentive to pursue a vaccine, as already pointed out. They are more difficult to catch, easy to prevent, and very easy and cheap to cure. A shot for the syph, a pill for the drip. No, the STDs that would be great to have a vaccine for are herpes (all of them) and HIV, because they cannot be cured, they are lifetime, and in the case of HIV, can be lethal. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/125 "2011-08-06T21:34:20Z")
If you gave everyone in the world the cure for Syph and gonorrhea, wouldn’t that simply wipe it off the face of the earth? No vaccine needed. Think how easy that would be. Eradicate contagious diseases by getting rid of them, rather than letting them just keep spreading. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/126 "2011-08-06T22:02:29Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If you gave everyone in the world the cure for Syph and gonorrhea, wouldn’t that simply wipe it off the face of the earth? No vaccine needed. Except there would be a small contingent of vociferous idiots, who, in the guise of “just asking questions,” would claim the cure was evil and ineffective, and prevent everyone from getting it. You can’t win, you can’t break even and you can’t get out of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/127 "2011-08-06T22:07:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So you’d rather achieve herd immunity by exposing children to the real disease rather than preventing it from happening in the first place? And you bristle at the accusation that you are an anti-vaxer. Just what is your problem? > [@curlcoat](#): > > I have no problem - I believe I’ve been quite clear on that. Yes, you have. You’d prefer the “natural” way, or deliberately infecting people rather than prevention, as you said here: > [@curlcoat](#): > > Prior to the vaccine we had herd immunity due to “pox parties”, or kids just getting it from classmates. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/128 "2011-08-06T23:48:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If you gave everyone in the world the cure for Syph and gonorrhea, wouldn’t that simply wipe it off the face of the earth? No vaccine needed. > > Think how easy that would be. Eradicate contagious diseases by getting rid of them, rather than letting them just keep spreading. Just how are you going to give everyone “the cure” at the same time? Hell, we can’t even get SAFE DRINKING WATER to everyone in the world right now. Plus, there are various religions and other beliefs that would either object on the basis that it rewards what they consider immoral behavior or because they don’t believe in antibiotics. The Catholic church, for instance has campaigned AGAINST condom education in the past (I don’t know if they’re currently doing it) in Africa. And there are a great many people who are allergic to one or more antibiotics. I’m allergic to half a dozen. Are you going to insist on antibiotics for infants, too? Yes, infants are infected, either through their mother, or because idiots believe that having sex with a virgin can cure AIDS. How are you going to get everyone to take a dose at the same time? Or even approximately the same time? We didn’t eradicate smallpox through treating people who already had it. We eradicated it through a comprehensive vaccination of pretty much the entire world. The thing about vaccination vs. antibiotics is that a vaccination will protect the patient for years, or even a lifetime. Antibiotics will treat THIS infection, but won’t prevent future infections. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/129 "2011-08-07T00:00:05Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Where does it show he denied filing a patent? If you for whatever reason think Brian Deer was making up the quoted denial by Wakefield, consider that the British Medical Journal series on Wakefield and the MMR contained detailed information on his moneymaking schemes (including [attempts to launch business enterprises on patented products including vaccines](http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258.full)), [revelations that Wakefield comprehensively denied](http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/11/autism.vaccines/index.html): \*"But in an interview on an internet radio site Tuesday, Wakefield again defended his research and called the BMJ series “utter nonsense.” He said the patent he held was not for a test or an alternative to the MMR vaccine, as BMJ reported, but an “over-the-counter nutritional supplement” that boosts the immune system."\* That interview was **not** with Brian Deer. How many times do you need to be shown that you’re wrong before you acknowledge it? > [@curlcoat](#): > > Because I asked questions, I must be something (you consider) evil, eh? No, just ignorant and disingenuous. And as pointed out before, not all antivaxers are flaming nutters who completely deny any utility to vaccination and see conspiracies under every rock. Many concede at least a minimal value to vaccination, while spreading bullshit under the guise of Just Asking Questions. For instance, Jenny McCarthy, one of the most notorious celebrity antivaxers, has been promoting a “Green Our Vaccines” movement, pretending that she just wants to make vaccines safer rather than destroying public immunization programs. You’ll find similar examples among 9/11 Truthers and any other denialist group. Some adherents are completely off the wall, others project an image of reasonableness while repeating many of the same dimwitted arguments. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/130 "2011-08-07T01:31:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Yes, you have. You’d prefer the “natural” way, or deliberately infecting people rather than prevention, as you said here: Pointing out that we had herd immunity prior to the vaccine is not an indication that I have any problem with you all vaccinating your children. It’s no wonder you rush to argue when there is no disagreement, if your reading skills are that bad. :smack: > [@Jackmannii](#): > > No, just ignorant and disingenuous. Asking questions is ignorant and disingenuous? Wow… And on a board claiming to fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/131 "2011-08-07T01:50:39Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Just how are you going to give everyone “the cure” at the same time? That’s a good question. It reminds me o0f how Cuba dealt with HIV, even before they knew what was the cause. They knew that something was spreading through blood supplies, anal sex, and I.V. drug use, sharing needles. So they stopped all those vectors, destroyed the blood supply, and quarantined the ill. And bam, just like that no epidemic. They still don’t have an HIV problem. How to do it on a larger scale? Like you said, politics and religion, probably money as well, they all resist actually ridding the world of disease. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/132 "2011-08-07T06:23:11Z")
Cuba is a special case, it was a rather small place where travel in and out is (or was) quite limited, and the government had quite a bit of control over people’s lives. This method wouldn’t work where people had a bit more freedom to refuse government aid, or where the population was more mobile, or any number of factors. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/133 "2011-08-07T15:43:32Z")
Certainly. But it does show that a rational and scientific approach to stopping diseases is possible. It’s not science that is lacking when it comes to reducing or ridding the world of disease and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/134 "2011-08-07T17:12:01Z")
Ridding the world of disease maybe. But you might want to rethink Cuba as your example of ridding the world of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/135 "2011-08-07T17:25:38Z")
Good point. But I meant suffering from want and disease. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/136 "2011-08-07T17:48:10Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > With your pets, knock yourself out not getting them vaccinated for anything but rabies. Especially if your pet is an indoor pet that doesn’t have much contact with others of the same species. Your pet is unlikely to start or carry on an epidemic that way. > > If your kid gets chicken pox, though, it’s another story altogether. That is likely to be transmitted and affect other people. Your right to swing your arms, my nose, and so on. > > If chicken pox or the flu were likely to just make your kid miserable for a while, I’d just think you were a lousy parent for letting your kid suffer from a preventable disease . But the fact that these diseases can be transmitted to others makes it worse than that (this does NOT, of course, apply to parents who don’t get their kids vaccinated because the kid is allergic to the vaccine, or something like that). It would be the same if it was his/her child that had a bad reaction to vaccines, too, as some kids do - not all children can be vaccinated, but they’re protected against the various illnesses by _other_ people vaccinating their children. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/137 "2011-08-07T19:49:15Z")
Or avoiding other children. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/138 "2011-08-10T00:07:37Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Linking to the story by the writer that I challenged to provide evidence from, is a circular reasoning. > > Or something. If there is evidence, let the writer provide it, instead of just making up a story. Are you denying that the GMC erased him from the medical rolls, in effect pulling his license? Are you denying that the Lancet retracted the study? Are you denying that he applied for a patent for a vaccine of his own invention, before he did the ‘study’ in question? This is all well known fact by this time. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290/139 "2011-08-10T00:21:27Z")
FXMastermind: Please explain how it would be possible to test everyone in the world for HIV, within a very narrow time frame, and then quarantine every single person who tests positive. Then, I believe, you’d need to prevent all sharing of needles and all sexual activity in general, over the entire population, followed by further testing, to find anyone who might have been missed the first time around. Not to mention providing monetary support for those quarantined, since they won’t be able to support themselves, along with some sort of support for families of breadwinners who are not allowed to work. That’s quite an ambitious building program you’ve got planned there, but at least it would put large numbers of people to work, not only for the building, but the enforcement and security. Yeah, sounds like a plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-antivaxers-suck-on-this/590290.md?page=6)