# Hey, Barking Spider, there is a difference between "conservative" and "bigot"... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041 "2002-06-09T00:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/21 "2002-06-09T03:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > That way, when I come after you in one of the **black** helicopters, I’ll be able to tell who’s who, since all you fuckers look alike to me, anyway. Sure, **Ike**. Bring up race in regards to transportation! You LIberals are all alike. Why can’t you come after him in a **white** helicopter? hmmmm?😃 ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/22 "2002-06-09T03:58:57Z")
reprise, you’re right. AFAIC, both show the absolute absurdity of those kinds of profiling initiatives. They are time-wasting feel-good programs that do nothing to address the problem of crime. ---
**Author:** ![Bandanaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@Bandanaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bandanaman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/23 "2002-06-09T04:03:35Z")
**Spider** , I for one applaud your efforts. It’s rare on this board to find someone willing to put their neck on the line, and call a spade a spade. Kudos, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/24 "2002-06-09T04:09:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey Grendel- It sure was BIGOTED of you to drag me to the pit. You should have checked out the FBI statistics of Black/White crime before you displayed your narrow minded bigotry. Who has denied that proportionately, blacks are overrepresented in the roster of violent criminals? I haven’t. But you never answered the question that I posed in the GD. Is the average violent criminal a black guy? And will profiling black guys put a dent in violent crime? Just because I think through these types of questions doesn’t make me a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/25 "2002-06-09T11:39:30Z")
Mr. Spider, perhaps you would get a little more respect and consideration if A: you didn’t immediately mock and assume the worst of everyone who disagrees with you, and B: would link to these vaunted FBI sites that you mention (that’s what “citing” is, after all). Not that I doubt your statistics or anything… just giving you some advice, buckaroo. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/26 "2002-06-09T14:22:15Z")
I’m no \*\* Barking Spider \*\*, but I have a personal interest in the area of crime statistics. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports may be found at [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm). The 2001 report isn’t complete yet, but the 2000 UCR is availible. From [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius\_00/00crime4.pdf:](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime4.pdf:) > [@](#): > > "Race distribution figures for the total number of arrests in the Nation during 2000 show that 69.7 percent of the arrestees were white, 27.9 percent were black, and the remainder were of other races. " The 2000 Census [http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/\_lang=en\_vt\_name=DEC\_2000\_SF1\_U\_QTP3\_geo\_id=01000US.html](http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_QTP3_geo_id=01000US.html) reports that whites, with a population of 211,460,626, make up 75.1% of the population. Blacks make up 12.3% with 34,658,190. So, whites are committing their fair share of crimes, and blacks commit about double their share. These are collected facts. So, with regard to crime, **Barking Spider** was correct. Returning to the UCR, we see that 625,132 arrests were made for violent crimes in the year 2000. Using the earlier racial statistics, I believe we can reasonably infer that whites were arrested for approx. 435,717 violent crimes; blacks with approx. 174,411. This may be skewed, as racial statistics are not available for specifically violent crimes. I conclude that if one were to implement a fingerprinting of U.S. citizens based on racial profiling, targeting blacks would be best with limited resources, targeting whites would be best if one had a large enough budget to do so, as they **do** commit more crimes than any other “ethnic group”, race, whatever you may call it. Personally, I suspect that the whole fingerprinting idea is intrinsically flawed due to the unreliable nature of fingerprints (as pointed out in the thread that inspired this one.) Regards. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/27 "2002-06-09T14:34:54Z")
Forget to uncheck “Automatically parse URLs”, that third URL should be [http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/\_lang=en\_vt\_name=DEC\_2000\_SF1\_U\_QTP3\_geo\_id=01000US.html](http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_QTP3_geo_id=01000US.html) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/28 "2002-06-09T14:39:23Z")
**mythos** , those are arrest statistics, and one cannot infer that merely being arrested is automatically synonymous with guilt for a crime. I work in corrections, after years of working in poor/high crime neighborhoods. People often get arrested in poor urban areas for things that would not get one arrested in a suburban/upscale setting. So let’s not make too many extrapolations from something like rates of arrest. The FBI statistics mean just this: Blacks are getting arrested at a higher rate than whites. More data is needed before we can assume as true other hypotheses , such as rates of criminality. Being arrested doesn’t automatically make one a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/29 "2002-06-09T15:16:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I conclude that if one were to implement a fingerprinting of U.S. citizens based on racial profiling, targeting blacks would be best with limited resources, targeting whites would be best if one had a large enough budget to do so, as they do commit more crimes than any other “ethnic group”, race, whatever you may call it. Seems to me if profiling was a crime cure-all, one would profile based on those traits that that MOST criminals share in common, not just SOME of them. If you’re going to profile, profile the poor. Profile the uneducated. Profile people with penises. But why profile on race, since it’s evident that both whites and blacks commit crime? If according to your stats, **mythos** , blacks commit 28% of the crime, even if we madly arrested all black people for prevention’s sake, you’d still have a ridiculous amount of crime out there. Is that an efficient way to stop crime? Or is that just a sure-fire way of unfairly penalizing a minority population and fostering resentment in an already stigmatized community? Or look at it this way: Is it fair to fingerprint me, a harmless biologist who’s idea of an adventure is stomping around in a salt marsh all day (and just happens to be black), whilst ignoring Bobby Ray, a white guy who doesn’t have two pennies to rub together and who’s never held a steady job in his life? Who’s more likely to hold up a liquor store, him or me? ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/30 "2002-06-09T15:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bandanaman \* > It’s rare on this board to find someone willing to put their neck on the line, and call a spade a spade. Kudos, my friend. \*\* Please tell me that this was just an unfortunate choice in words. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/31 "2002-06-09T16:06:55Z")
Barking Spider, you are making some huge assumptions and I’d like to answer some of your accusations, as someone who agrees with those who call you a bigot. Let’s get this straight right off the bat: you are assuming that people are calling you a bigot because they do not like the statistics that you post and wish to attack you. In actuality, the accusations of bigotry are because of the conclusions you reach from the data, not the data itself. I’ll demonstrate. You post that black people are statistically more likely than white people to commit crimes. You then assume (presumably) that black people are somehow inherently more criminal, or otherwise somehow naturally different, and thus racial profiling is necessary. However, you haven’t determined cause and effect in the statistics – you see the effect, and you presume the cause. I for one arrive at a different hypothesis for cause – that is, blacks are statistically more likely to commit crimes because they are statistically much more likely to be poor. Thus, the real cause of crime is not being black, it is poverty. We’ve seen this ring true in other places. Of course, you could then argue that race is the cause of poverty (the implication being that blacks are somehow more lazy). Again, this would be putting a racial slant on the cause based on the effect, and I would disagree. Instead, I would argue that the cause is simply that blacks have always been at a disadvantage because poverty tends to breed poverty. That is, if you are born poor, you are likely to make less money than someone who is born rich (for a variety of reasons – access to education being one of the obvious, but hardly the only one). Historically, blacks have been poor, and while things are improving, they haven’t equalized with whites yet. Thus, I reach completely opposite conclusions from your statistics, as I’m sure others do. That is why when you post statistics and then claim that it is only logical to have racial profiling (institutionalized bigotry), I would call you a bigot. Your personal racist views are influencing your view of the data. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/32 "2002-06-09T16:13:24Z")
**Qadgop** , point very well taken. I hadn’t considered the fact that many blacks are arrested unjustly for trivial (or false) offenses. I shall look for conviction statistics, in the interest of curiosity. **Monstro** , I do not advocate racial profiling of any kind. However, since this thread was (seemingly) in part inspired by your and **Barking Spider’s** comments on racial profiling, I went ahead and threw out my own conclusion, which presumed the use of some type of profiling. If you recall, **Barking Spider** advocated profiling blacks, and you pointed out that whites commit more crimes, and that profiling was wrong to begin with. I agree. You are correct, poverty is (it seems) a true cause of crime, race is clearly not. But, again, fingerprinting everyone below the poverty line is still unjust, as is fingerprinting all blacks, whites, or “foriegners”. Furthermore, as well as being unjust, racial (or economic, for that matter) profiling is ineffective. Race does not influence behavior. One must work to remove the conditions that _do_. Obviously, Bobby Ray, particularly if he had a juvenile record (purely in my experience), would be more likely to commit a crime, particularly violent crime, than a biologist of any race, since, again, race does not influence behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Spider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Barking\_Spider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Spider)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/33 "2002-06-09T16:21:29Z")
Fluiddruid, the ONLY reason I got involved in that particular Great Debate was because Monstro put forth the opinion that Whites are the ones committing the crimes and should be the ones getting fingerprinted. Why don’t you call her a bigot for her statement? She was the one calling for racial profiling of Whites. All I was doing was rebutting her charges that Whites are the ones committing the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/34 "2002-06-09T16:34:14Z")
It’s called irony, you flaming pinhead. She was pointing out that not only blacks commit crimes, that whites (or Whites with a capital W, as you seem to Serlinly prefer) commit crimes too, that the color of one’s skin is not a determining factor in the likelyhood to commit a crime. **Fluiddruid** said it best. The statistics don’t prove any inherrent flaw in one "race’ or another, only that there is a trend. On what does that trend hinge? My money goes to socio-economic environment – not DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Spider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Barking\_Spider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Spider)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/35 "2002-06-09T16:43:54Z")
\*\*Mythos45 \*\* said: . > [@](#): > > If you recall, Barking Spider advocated profiling blacks, and you pointed out that whites commit more crimes, and that profiling was wrong to begin with. I agree. NO, you have that backward. It was **Monstro** who first suggested profiling, of Whites, because “they’re the ones who are doing the crimes”. It was only after that that I jumped in. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/36 "2002-06-09T16:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Why don’t you call her a bigot for her statement? She was the one calling for racial profiling of Whites. Not only are YOU a bigot, but you’re an idiot. Notice no one is calling me a bigot except for you. And why is that? Because everyone seems to be able to READ except for you. We can’t blame Affirmative Action for your illiteracy, so what’s your excuse? **Mythos** , thanks for clarifying and providing stats. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/37 "2002-06-09T17:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Well if you’re in a predominantly white neighborhood your biggest threat are white males. Last time I checked, white folks commit more crimes than other folks. So does it not make sense to fingerprint all the white males and follow them around wherever they go? Why haven’t we been doing this, people! Can you honestly sit there and say you believe I WASN’T being tongue-in-cheek when I posted this, **Barking Spider**. > [@](#): > > If we’re talking about crime and who should be profiled, I say it should be the group that commits the MOST of it. Let’s fingerprint these people and see if there’s any resulting change in the crime rate. If it works, then we can see about fingerprinting everyone else. And just what’s bigoted about this statement, huh? > [@](#): > > But if 70% of the pop is white and only 12% is black, who is the AVERAGE American more likely to encounter? A bad black guy or a bad white guy? Am I racist for knowing how to do math? And this one? What’s bigoted about this one, pray tell? > [@](#): > > I reiterate: I think profiling based on things like race and religion is a bad idea. Profiling whites to lower the crime rate is just as senseless as profiling Muslims to lower the terrorism rate. If you can’t get that idea by “reconciling” my two posts, then I can’t help you. Did your eyes stop working when I posted this? Would a bigot post something like this? Because I sure as hell know a bigot would post something like this in a conversation about–of all things–terrorism and profiling: > [@](#): > > Thats like when some liberal jumps up and says that: > > “Most Americans on welfare are White” > > But of course when you tell them that Whites are 70% of the countries population, yet only 40% of the welfare caseload, and Blacks are 12% of the population, but 38% of the welfare caseload, do they shut their racist liberal mouths. It must feel good to call people “racist”. That way, you ensure youself that you are not alone. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/38 "2002-06-09T17:04:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Barking Spider \* > \*\*It was **Monstro** who first suggested profiling, of Whites, because “they’re the ones who are doing the crimes”. > > It was only after that that I jumped in. \*\* **Barking Spider** – the great defender of “The Whites”. You are utterly transparent. I’m “white”, for lack of a better classification – don’t speak for me, douche-lick. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/39 "2002-06-09T17:08:48Z")
**Barking Spider** > [@](#): > > - originally posted by monstro\* > Well if you’re in a predominantly white neighborhood your biggest threat are white males. Last time I checked, white folks commit more crimes than other folks. So does it not make sense to fingerprint all the white males and follow them around wherever they go? Why haven’t we been doing this, people! was followed by: > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Barking Spider_ > Black males commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime in this country. The typical Black is several times more likely than the typical White to be a criminal, or to commit a crime of violence. In fact, Blacks commit 90 percent of Black/White interracial violent crime. I disagree with your statement of “vastly disproportionate amount of crime”. See my statistics above. I used the 2000 Uniform Crime Report and 2000 Census to procure my statistics, do yours not jibe with mine? Do you have a source that reports a vast difference? That said, I was in fact incorrect, and **monstro** was first with his/her remarks, which you responded to. You have my sincere apologies. Please note that I do not consider you a bigot, as your opinions seem to be informed, rather than irrational. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041/40 "2002-06-09T17:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > **It’s called irony, you flaming pinhead.** yes, it is. Allow me to state that as a working class white male I do _not_ want to be profiled, I read **monstro** ’s statement as a reason profiling is rediculous- it draws on meaningless data as a reason to disenfranchise people. White people don’t commit crime, black people don’t commit crime, arabs don’t commit crime: criminals commit crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-barking-spider-there-is-a-difference-between-conservative-and-bigot/113041.md?page=3)