"Hey batter, batter" banned by Little League

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
I’m FOR the mercy rule. You get beat, BAD, life lesson learned. Rubbing it in doesn’t do much to reinforce the lesson
[/quote]
Sure it does. If it’s a good lesson to be able to handle losing a little bit, it must be really good to learn what it would be like to not get off the field until the sun goes down or the opposition gets simply too tired to continue whipping you. Imagine the character of those kids after going through that - that’s a part of baseball.

You take out the second basement on a DP. You don’t spike him- that’s bad sportsmanship. But you certainly DO disrupt the play. That’s teamwork.

I didn’t say anything about spiking him. But disrupting the play can and probably should involve making contact with him in such a way that he cannot get off a good throw or has to worry about landing. And that will probably end up hurting at least a little bit. There’s no reason why that should be disallowed from good competition.

And you DO knock the ball loose from the catcher. The catcher ought to be big- he ought to keep a firm grip on the ball. That’s part of the job description of being a catcher. Shorter kids, Ripken and Rodriguez be damned, play shortstop. Or second base. Or an outfield position.

That’s right! If they’re not big, they shouldn’t be out there. And if they can’t hold on to the ball, that’s another good life lesson! Well said, Scrappy!

See, what YOU don’t seem to get, Hentor, is that it isn’t all-or-nothing. You either haven’t played sports or you got taken out hard by another kid’s half-speed.

Not at all, but I can see where someone of limited mental capacity would make such a leap. I played baseball, ran track and played high school football. I was a good athlete and have always been extremely competitive. That may be why I would prefer to keep rec leagues for fun and competitive leagues for competition. Perhaps I should suppose that you were a suck ass who couldn’t make it in competitive leagues, so had to get off on beating up the kids who are just out for a good time?

… or something. I honestly don’t know what. But you’re equating running over the catcher with stabbing him. You’re equating disrupting the DP with spiking the second baseman. Baseball is a contact sport. Baseball is a competitive sport. And breaking up the DP, dislodging the ball from the catcher, throwing inside- these are fundamentals of the game. On any level. Taking them away from the kids destroys the game.

That’s my point - they are taken away in some leagues, and the kids do just fine. Basing an argument on “how the game has been played forever and ever” has to account for the existence of the mercy rule, and rules against taking out the second baseman or catcher. I’m glad, however that you endorse mayhem and violence, though.

And before you interpret my last sentence above as endorsing mayhem and violence, you should re-read the sentences preceding it for comprehension. Use a dictionary or perhaps “Baseball for Dummies” as a reference.

Ooops. Well, you sure got me there, smarty pants.

That’s not really very aggressive either, owing to the distance factor. But it’s a start.

I guess it will have to do, but I’m sure glad you’re pleased.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=tdn]
This stuff I did not know. Shows what little I know about baseball.
[/QUOTE]
He’s not telling you, however, that those things are not permitted in the types of recreation little league that we are talking about.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

Hentor, you’re a moron who’s trying to pick a fight. But you’re doing it very, very badly.

That’s right! If they’re not big, they shouldn’t be out there. And if they can’t hold on to the ball, that’s another good life lesson! Well said, Scrappy!

Ummmm… no. Read for comprehension. If they’re not big, they should play a position where size is not a prerequisite. Where the hell do you get “shouldn’t be out there” from this:

[QUOTE= me]
Shorter kids, Ripken and Rodriguez be damned, play shortstop. Or second base. Or an outfield position.
[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Where do you get “shouldn’t be out there?” Are you misattributing a position to me because you can’t read, don’t understand, or are you just trolling?

I’d go with trolling, especially given how you parsed my post to remove the actual content of the explanation of “fundamentals.” But then, it’s hard to argue when you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about, which you don’t.

He’s not telling you, however, that those things are not permitted in the types of recreation little league that we are talking about.

Of course I’m not telling tdn that. Because the only person who’s talking about recreational leagues here is you. Are you trying to start a game of “let’s you and him fight” between me and tdn? Because S/He and I appear to have found a meeting point, which, while unexpected on page 1, is certainly gratifying.

You’re an idiot, Hentor. And that’s not a taunt, that’s an empirical determination.

[Swallowed_My_Cellphone]

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I don’t think the heckling is a horrible thing, and I don’t contend that it’s destroying anyone’s life; I’m just opposed to the idea that it’s necessary, that it builds character in any way, or that the game of baseball would be in any way diminished by its absence.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, agreed. But I don’t think an outright banning is necessary either. Rather than nanny-legislation, kids should be taught where to draw the line, when to shut up, and the difference “playful ribbing” and “abusive harassment.” They need adult guidance not a rule that says they can’t act out. I do think it does build character to some degree because there are various social aspects at play. As an individual player, as a member of a team, a the anonymous face in a larger mob: there’s a lot of socialization going on.

In the case of the OP, if the heckling was so nasty a kid had to hit another, that shows poor adult supervision. “Pitcher’s got a rubber arm!” is not something even a kid would take seriously. (Hell, when I first heard it, I didn’t even understand what it meant. I knew the tone was playfully belittleing, but it was also a good-natured kind of poking fun, and was clearly intended to throw me off.) But real insults and heckling are products of poor sportsmanship. Kids should be working on excelling at the game and not trying to win by being the loudest.

But “Pitcher’s got a rubber arm! Got it from the funny farm!” really is no big deal.

[lowbrass]

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]

But “Pitcher’s got a rubber arm! Got it from the funny farm!” really is no big deal.
[/QUOTE]

What happened to the classics? Like, “Pitcher’s off his rocker; he looks like Betty Crocker.”

[tdn]

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]
Okay, agreed. But I don’t think an outright banning is necessary either. Rather than nanny-legislation, kids should be taught where to draw the line, when to shut up, and the difference “playful ribbing” and “abusive harassment.” They need adult guidance not a rule that says they can’t act out.
[/QUOTE]

Sure enough. But what we don’t know is if that was already tried and it didn’t work. I’d entertain the possibility that it was so out of hand that a ban was the only answer.

I wish we had more details on this story.

[Swallowed_My_Cellphone]

[QUOTE=tdn]
I wish we had more details on this story.
[/QUOTE]
Me too. Considering all the news stories about parents getting into fights in the stands at kids’ sporting events, maybe the adults need the lesson in manners from the kids.

The cynic in me suspects it’s more like the “No running in the playground” signs that were erected somewhere in Oregon. Some parent probably threatened to sue the league. “My child tried to murder another kid. How come your league didn’t have rules to protect my child from this?” or an instigator’s parents “Our child harassed another and got punched? Why didn’t you have rules in place to protect our child from his own big mouth?”

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Of course I’m not telling tdn that. Because the only person who’s talking about recreational leagues here is you. Are you trying to start a game of “let’s you and him fight” between me and tdn? Because S/He and I appear to have found a meeting point, which, while unexpected on page 1, is certainly gratifying.

You’re an idiot, Hentor. And that’s not a taunt, that’s an empirical determination.
[/QUOTE]
Of course this is about a recreational league, you stupid shit. Did you read the OP? I’m the one who can’t read for comprehension? I’m not sure you know what “empirical”, “taunt”, or “and” mean.

[Garfield226]

Keep in mind Hentor’s the guy who went on for five pages absolutely convinced that little league lineups are in alphabetical order, called me a cunt because I dared disagree with him about the Romney situation, made the ridiculous assertion that intentional walks were never used in little league, said I was lying about my experience to the contrary, and after I provided no fewer than six cites to other posts in that very thread which suggested or implied (but did not state directly) that they were used or acceptable, argued for nearly a full page – calling me a liar all the while – and finally grudgingly apologized, “taking his ball and going home.” (no, really.)

So yeah. If you guys want to waste your time with him after that, feel free. Just sayin’.

[Stratocaster]

[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
If we wanted to really steel the kiddies for the big leagues, the parents would boo *their own team * when they fucked up. Just saying.
[/QUOTE]
That’s how we do it in Philly. Some ten-year-old strikes out twice in a row, I throw a battery at him. Then I scream at him, for the rest of the game, that he’s a bum and his wife’s a whore.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

[QUOTE= Garfield226]
Keep in mind Hentor’s the guy who went on for five pages absolutely convinced that little league lineups are in alphabetical order, called me a cunt because I dared disagree with him about the Romney situation, made the ridiculous assertion that intentional walks were never used in little league, said I was lying about my experience to the contrary, and after I provided no fewer than six cites to other posts in that very thread which suggested or implied (but did not state directly) that they were used or acceptable, argued for nearly a full page – calling me a liar all the while – and finally grudgingly apologized, “taking his ball and going home.” (no, really.)
[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe you, liar.

All your assertions are completely out of character for Hentor.

Those cites must be fabrications.

[The_Spirit_of_Radio]

[QUOTE=Caridwen]
make racial remarks.
[/QUOTE]

Umm…, explain?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=Garfield226]
Keep in mind Hentor’s the guy who went on for five pages absolutely convinced that little league lineups are in alphabetical order,
[/quote]
Jesus, what a misrepresentation. I speculated as to why he would have his worst hitter batting behind his best. That’s a speculation, not “absolutely convinced.”

called me a cunt because I dared disagree with him about the Romney situation,

No, because you were being a cunt.

made the ridiculous assertion that intentional walks were never used in little league,

I do believe most of the people with actual experience with little league agreed with me about that. But you could count it up and get back to us on it.

But I was put in the mind of that thread in responding to this one, because, like in real life Little League, there’s always going to be a coach and a bunch of parents with priorities so out of whack that they pull really outlandish shit. You and Scrappy are prime examples of that. People who say things like this:

I’ll bet you nobody in the league turned a triple play all season. If that team had (and guess who batted into it…poor ol’ Romney), who would still be bawling for the poor kids’ fewwings? “But, but, it’s common practice to get ONE out on a play!” you would say. And that would sound just as idiotic as this.

[RickJay]

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Exactly.

One reason the pros probably don’t engage in too much of that is that they’re too busy thinking about the game, in many instances. It’s easy to assume that fielding in baseball is about little more than standing in your position and fielding any ball that gets hit to you, but a good player will be constantly thinking about where he should be, what the next play might bring, whether the runner on first is going to steal, etc., etc.

Anyone who’s read George Will’s Men at Work knows how much intensive thought goes into playing the game well.
[/QUOTE]

While all that is true, most of the thought must happen before the game is played. If a fielder is out there trying to figure out, by himself, where to stand, he’s screwed up already. He should know where to go immediately or should be directed by the catcher or by a coach.

Major League ballplayers don’t engage in a lot of distracting chatter because

1. It’s just pointless to try at that level, because it won’t work. You’re playing against professionals who’ve gone through the longest, most rigorous development program in professional team sports. By the time you get to the major leagues you are not dealing with guys who’re easily distracted, and

2. If you act like an asshole you’re going to get a 96-MPH fastball upside your head.

I don’t know if it’s too late to weigh in on this, but it’s about baseball so I feel obliged to.

Let’s be perfectly frank; this league didn’t ban chatter because kids were bawling about someone saying “Hey batta batta.” There’s not a shred of doubt in my mind that kids were going way too far and using vicious insults and language, and the umpires were losing control of it and the parents and coaches weren’t doing enough, so the league organization had to use a big stick. Characterizing this as people trying to shield kids from mild, harmless razzing is total bullshit. Some folks wouldn’t rein it in so the league president hammered them. He did what he had to do.

Not one sane person on the face of God’s earth has a problem with “hey batta batta.” What they do have a problem with is when the jeering gets nasty and abusive and profane. Little League is supposed to be a family event and I don’t want to go and find peopel shrieking insults and shit. Sure, people have to learn to accept abuse, but we don’t let classrooms shriek insults at kids trying to do oral presentations and we wouldn’t want people in passing cars slowing down to scream insults at our kids when they’re learning to ride their bikes. We all know it’s abusive shit this league was dealing with so let’s stop pretending it’s about banning “hey batta batta.”

Shouting insults is NOT a part of baseball and never has been. “Hey batta batta swing batta” is about the limit that sportsmanship allows, and that’s for kids; in semicompetitive and recreational adult baseball, softball and slo-pitch, it’s profoundly assholish, bad sportsmanship, in contravention of the gentlemanly nature of baseball and, incidentally, against the rules. If you did that and were on my team I’d tell you to shut the fuck up, and if I was umping the game I’d ask you to be quiet and start penalizing your team if you didn’t. I cannot imagine who thinks insulting and heckling the other team is acceptable in noncompetitive baseball; it has NEVER been acceptable, anywhere or anytime I am aware of, and even in competitive leagues the umpires should keep a strict limit on it.

Sure, we sometimes overprotect our kids, but anyone who thinks prohibiting abusive language on a Little League field is going to prevent kids from learning hard life lessons about abuse is, to be perfectly honest, a fucking moron. Kids take abuse all the time and 98% of it is out of the earshot of any adult. At least let them play ball in peace.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

Sure, we sometimes overprotect our kids, but anyone who thinks prohibiting abusive language on a Little League field is going to prevent kids from learning hard life lessons about abuse is, to be perfectly honest, a fucking moron. Kids take abuse all the time and 98% of it is out of the earshot of any adult. At least let them play ball in peace.

Sure, but the point that some of the more levelheaded people in this thread are trying to make over the objections of Hentor et. al. is that rather than banning all chatter just to get at the kids being abusive, the powers that be could just enforce a code of sportsmanship.

[lowbrass]

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Sure, but the point that some of the more levelheaded people in this thread are trying to make over the objections of Hentor et. al. is that rather than banning all chatter just to get at the kids being abusive, the powers that be could just enforce a code of sportsmanship.
[/QUOTE]

Not really. Chatter is allowed in that league, just not if it’s negative and directed against the other team. The rule is already in place. You want the rules, which currently do not allow abusive chatter, to be changed so that abusive chatter is allowed. That’s not really as reasonable a position as you’re trying to make it sound.

Besides which, “enforcing a code of sportsmanship” obviously wasn’t working, since people were comitting acts of violence against each other.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

[QUOTE= lowbrass]
Not really. Chatter is allowed in that league, just not if it’s negative and directed against the other team. The rule is already in place. You want the rules, which currently do not allow abusive chatter, to be changed so that abusive chatter is allowed. That’s not really as reasonable a position as you’re trying to make it sound.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t tell me what I want and don’t want. Because you’re dead wrong.

“Abusive” chatter? “Hey batta batta” is not abusive chatter. My dog in this fight, my beef, if you will, is with morons that think it IS. The rule forbids chatter directed at another team or opposing players. Not everything directed at your opponent is “abusive.” THAT’s the issue. Or, at least, it’s MY issue.

[QUOTE= lowbrass]
Besides which, “enforcing a code of sportsmanship” obviously wasn’t working, since people were comitting acts of violence against each other.
[/QUOTE]

Well, what makes you think that a blanket ban on chatter is going to be any more easily enforced? If kid umpires weren’t throwing people out of games for ACTUAL abuse and bad sportsmanship, what makes you think they’ll be any more likely do do so for this, weaker reason?

That’s a sincere question. I’d really like to hear a theory on that.

[Wee_Bairn]

What’s next, banning keeping score, becasue of the psychological damage it may do to the members of the losing team?

[tdn]

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Well, what makes you think that a blanket ban on chatter is going to be any more easily enforced? If kid umpires weren’t throwing people out of games for ACTUAL abuse and bad sportsmanship, what makes you think they’ll be any more likely do do so for this, weaker reason?

That’s a sincere question. I’d really like to hear a theory on that.
[/QUOTE]

It’s always easier to enforce a rule that’s less ambiguous, for one thing. Seperating chatter from abuse can sometimes be a tricky judgement call, I imagine.

[Cheesesteak]

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
What’s next, banning keeping score, becasue of the psychological damage it may do to the members of the losing team?
[/QUOTE]
Your brilliant argument has caused me to change my mind.