# Hey Bernie, go to hell and take all of your Bros with you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322 "2018-02-22T04:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/361 "2018-03-22T00:17:23Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > Thanks. 🙂 But Trump is an improvement. Oh wait, I forgot, you’re one of the stupid people who doesn’t know Duverger’s Law. > [@](#): > > And I’m not a Democrat; I align with Socialist Alternative Makes you a loser and Donald Trump appreciated your support. Not worth responding to the rest. Not worth the time. Go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/362 "2018-03-22T00:21:23Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > Yup, see ya at Trump’s 2021 inauguration! 🆒 Trump thanks you for your support. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/363 "2018-03-22T00:23:59Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > If the Democrats nominate another crypto-fascist rather than Bernie or someone like Bernie, I’m going third party again. Donald Trump appreciates your support! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/364 "2018-03-22T00:27:51Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This. We have a choice. We can by our votes or lack of votes support the party of the fascist dominionist racist oligarchy, > > the party of Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Jeff Sessions, Steve Bannon, Sebastian Gorka, ex-Sheriff Arpaio, Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Darth Cheney, Chris Cantwell, etc, or “ANYONE BUT THEM”. > > I will continue to choose “ANYONE BUT THEM”. It’s called Duverger’s Law. Smart people know it. Dumb people don’t. Thank you for being smart. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/365 "2018-03-22T00:31:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I have provided citations on why the Clintons were not good for minorities. And you’re saying black people are stupid for not knowing that. Or stupid for knowing it but still supporting her. That’s your position. Either realize it isn’t what you feel and change it or own it. This hand-wringing third option isn’t working because we’re not as stupid as you think the black population is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/366 "2018-03-22T00:33:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This is pretty fucking pathetic. We have Deplorables arguing about the evils of Racist Clinton (or something), > while we’ve had an administration infested by and supported by > > Jefferson Beauregard “KKK” Sessions, Sebastian “Nazi” Gorka, Donald "Very Fine People"Trump, backer Robert “never met a fascist I didn’t like” Mercer, Mike “dominionism” Pence, Steve “Nazi” Bannon, Joe “kill the Mexicans” Arpaio, Roy “Little Girls Are Fun” Moore, Sean Donahue, Paul “Nazi” Gosar etc etc etc, Etc. > > and we have > _banning people over their religion, deporting and scapegoating immigrants because of their race, coddling violent and murdering racists, repeating/retweeting sick violent memes by White-Supremacists, ignoring Right-Wing mass murder and rampant gun crimes while hyping bigoted foreign terrorism fears, Ignoring Climate Change which increases the threat of more intense hurricanes, storms, draughts, floods and fires. ignoring 1000 hurricane deaths in Puerto Rico, stealing funding from public schools to give tax payer money to private religious school mills that cherry pick the easier students but don’t get better educational results, threatening the Press with retaliation for not co-towing to his endless ego, selling off pieces of the internet to the highest bidder, blocking access to legal abortion to underage undocumented rape victims, knee-capping the agencies that protects consumers from rampant investment and banking fraud, threatening Black Football players with being fired for seeking legal non-violent redress of their grievances against the government, selling out the middle-class to corporate greed, disrespecting the families of our Fallen Vets, fucking up peoples health care, destroying our national parks, gutting safety and health regulations which put the environmental, consumer product standards and worker safety in dire peril, and systematically destroying our democratic institution_ Yes. And everyone who did not support Clinton in the primary election is responsible. Some of them are [still gleeful about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0) too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/367 "2018-03-22T00:41:43Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I was appreciating Bernie’s contributions to politics years before these kids were born. I remember when he was elected mayor of Burlington in what, 1981? and got a _Doonesbury_ strip about him. Over 35 years his record built up plenty of respect and goodwill on my part. When he announced, although I never supported him over Hillary, I remember being well disposed toward him anyway. Then suddenly all these hotheads rose up who had only just heard of him, lacking any historical perspective. > > It took only half a year for the Bernie freaks to completely demolish the respect and goodwill of decades I had felt for him. The crazier and more toxic they got, the more I cursed the day I ever heard of Bernie Sanders in the first place. This is the long view of my OP. I wasn’t there with Bernie in Burlington but I was with him a few years before he did announce and was glad I was when he did run. I lasted a little longer than you but I finally got tired of apologizing for his bullshit and his dumbass fan club. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/368 "2018-03-22T04:02:31Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Yes. And everyone who did not support Clinton in the primary election is responsible. > > Some of them are [still gleeful about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0) too. Because of “ideological purity” or some such horse shit. You don’t have to support her in the Primary, you don’t have to like her, but once that is over, vote AGAINST Trump. It was that simple. Epic Fail. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/369 "2018-03-22T14:05:14Z")
Bernie’s candidates keep losing. What does that tell us? There’s no evidence that America’s ready for a Bernie revolution; in fact, probably the opposite is true. Americans in Trump country and probably throughout much of centrist and moderate left-leaning America don’t want revolution; they probably want political evolution instead. I’m also getting fed up with all of this “independent” nonsense. The greatest leaders in our country were pragmatic partisans, not “independents”. Their candidacies expressed a clear platform based on a clear value system, and then they stayed in the party to hold it accountable for bringing that into effect. This is something that I find a little bit underhanded about Bernie’s recent political career. He’s not really interested in changing the Democratic party; he just wants to use it as a vehicle to gain attention. Is it his right to do this? Sure. But it’s not going to succeed in doing anything other than weakening what is currently an opposition party – his candidates are losing, not winning, after all. And with that being said, I think most progressives can agree that there has never been a more important time to have a strong opposition party than right now. Weakening that party for the sake of some personal crusade is just off-the-charts egotistical and irresponsible for someone who has Bernie’s level of political experience and expertise. He understand the potential implications of his behavior, yet continues to engage in it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/370 "2018-03-23T07:33:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can you explain exactly what a “crypto-fascist” is? > > You keep calling the democratic party a party of them, and I assume it is an insult, but it really sounds like just a snarl word you throw at people you don’t like. > > If it is those who work with the people in financial and manufacturing sectors to keep our economy running smoothly, as opposed to socialism ideals that, instead of working with the private sector, seek to eliminate it, then you are just going to need to form your own party. > > Democrats aren’t going to nominate a socialist. Just because the democrats are closer to that then the republicans doesn’t mean that that is the direction we are going, or even that we desire to go. I wouldn’t mind moving a bit further left, but you just want to go straight to nationalizing everything that doesn’t give you the results that you think it should. That’s not just non-viable politically, it’s also a terrible idea. > > Go join Bernie in his socialist party, and tell the socialists how to be socialist. A crypto-fascist is anyone who claims to be a “progressive” who is, in reality, a right-winger. So, basically, the typical American liberal. It also applies to centrists. Basically, right-wingers in sheep’s clothing. While nationalization would be nice, that’s not a requirement. Bernie certainly ain’t for it. He’s basically a social democrat. But still, that’s a hell of an improvement over the mess we’ve got now. > [@asahi](#): > > A lesser evil gives the rest of us a chance to see things we care about voted into effect; purity gives us no place at the table to talk. Conor Lamb would never have come this close to victory in PA if he had run a Bernie Sanders race. But I guess Bernie Sanders’ supporters just want to pretend that eventually people in rural Pennsylvania - or Kansas or wherever - will become more enlightened and vote just the way rural white folk in Vermont do. It’s a kind of condescension that’s not likely to persuade anyone at all; it will simply succeed in polarizing people more and dividing up progressives into factions with coarser attitudes toward each other. That’s why Bernie’s Bros are essentially a left wing version of the Tea Party. And while the Republicans did get some mileage out of that movement, it would appear to be an increasingly toxic brand with limited shelf life. Bernie did hella well in the primary in rural areas the country-wide. So Bernie’s messages does resonate there. Find another broken record, please. > [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > The “whole motherfucker” includes things like rule of law and political accountability, though. I mean, it seems like the worst thing about the Trump administration generally is the brazen conflicts of interest and corruption getting normalized or shrugged off. You think that a period of chaos is going to be helpful for the powerless? I think it would be much more likely to end up with the US being like Putin’s Russia or Duterte’s Philippines, where the rich/powerful/connected can do exactly as they like and if you don’t keep your mouth shut you just get killed out on the street and no one will do a thing about it. That’s where we’re headed anyway, so why not take a chance on a wild card? Ain’t a thing to lose. > [@Stonebow](#): > > I can appreciate that as a personal perspective based only on personal experience, however, there are real differences in the social safety net, common good services, educational opportunities, worker protection, and civil rights of marginalized populations when Dems are in charge. To suggest otherwise is incorrect at best, malicious at worst. > > I am often amused at Americans who think they are living ‘at the bottom.’ Go tell that to someone from Rwanda or Ecuador, and then be sure to duck. Even while dumpster diving and living the struggle ‘in the streets,’ you still managed to either own or find a public means of engaging this online community. What a country, eh? And the suggestion that somehow you’ll bring us all down to your level and that will improve your lot? Laughable. Not in its naivete (I tend toward optimism, myself), but because we have actually seen how that plays out over and over again in history. It was Clinton who colluded with the Repiglickins and destroyed what was left of the safety net. Since then, Dems have been more than happy to go along with destroying it further. So no, there isn’t much of a difference left. Also
 why hello there, Fallacy of Relative Privation! Funny, I keep seeing you around. It’s almost as if people still think the “but people are starving in Africa!” argument holds any water. :rolleyes: Bonus points for throwing “But you have the internet!” in there. Newsflash, it’s 2018. People in rural villages in Africa have smartphones now. _buzz!_ try again. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Besides, what is this crap about crypto-fascists, when we are now dealing with REAL fascists? Six of one, half-dozen of the other. > [@asahi](#): > > I can’t remember if I said it here or elsewhere (my apologies if I already mentioned it) but the Democrats need to understand something going forward: there are the local races and then there’s the big one, the presidential race. In local races, the blueprint is to support the candidate that can win as a Democrat, provided they’re willing to support at least some of the core Democratic principles. Taking Conor Lamb as an example, he probably wouldn’t support severe firearms control restrictions but he probably would support stronger background checks. He probably wouldn’t support Medicare for All, but he probably would support strengthening Medicare and expanding Medicaid, especially since a lot of Republicans seemed okay with Medicaid expansion. Conor Lamb was able to win in a Republican stronghold **because he wasn’t a Republican**. That’s good enough for me, and it ought to be good enough for everyone else in the party. > > The bigger challenge will be the presidential elections, which is when you have to bring the different factions together and have them enthusiastically support the winner. Chances are, the winner is not going to be Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, and if it were, I wouldn’t give them much of a chance to win the general election. [http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/358599-sanders-wouldve-beat-trump-in-2016-just-ask-trump-pollsters](http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/358599-sanders-wouldve-beat-trump-in-2016-just-ask-trump-pollsters) > **[Hillary Clinton lost. Bernie Sanders could have won.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/10/hillary-clinton-lost-bernie-sanders-could-have-won/?utm_term=.c2d71ffc0c08)** > > We chose the wrong candidate. Oops. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > But Trump is an improvement. Oh wait, I forgot, you’re one of the stupid people who doesn’t know Duverger’s Law. > > Makes you a loser and Donald Trump appreciated your support. > > Not worth responding to the rest. Not worth the time. Go to hell. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Trump thanks you for your support. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Donald Trump appreciates your support! > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > It’s called Duverger’s Law. Smart people know it. Dumb people don’t. > > Thank you for being smart. I indeed do, thanks. But that doesn’t obligate me in any way to support someone just cuz “lesser evil”. Sorry. And he’s welcome. And so is everyone who thought Hillary - diving into a pool full of piss - was better than Trump - diving into a pool full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/371 "2018-03-23T10:29:17Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > [http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/358599-sanders-wouldve-beat-trump-in-2016-just-ask-trump-pollsters](http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/358599-sanders-wouldve-beat-trump-in-2016-just-ask-trump-pollsters) > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/10/hillary-clinton-lost-bernie-sanders-could-have-won/?utm\_term=.c2d71ffc0c08](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/10/hillary-clinton-lost-bernie-sanders-could-have-won/?utm_term=.c2d71ffc0c08) > > Oops. Well congratulations on finding two (or more writers) who agree with you, but let’s not confuse editorials with hard evidence. There is no evidence at all that Bernie Sanders would have defeated Donald Trump, and as I said in the previous post: don’t just look at the fact that Bernie Sanders lost to the Democratic nominee by 3 million votes; look also at what has happened since then. Look at the Bernie Sanders wing of the party – how successful has Democratic Socialism been since November of 2016? Not very. I will acknowledge one thing: the same energy that fueled Bernie Sanders’ unexpected rise during the 2016 is also fueling progressive some badly needed energy in local races. So the same kind of insurgency is starting to pump life into progressive causes, with more activism on things like women’s rights, immigrants rights, confronting police brutality and racism, and gun control – I think the Bernie energy is there. But I’m not sure it’s really Bernie who’s responsible for this. More like an entire recoiling in horror at the naked ambitions of the radical right wing and deciding that we’re going to do something about it. I agree completely that the Democratic establishment needs to find a way to make room in its party for these kinds of progressives, but at the same time, these progressives need to be pragmatic and understand they don’t always get to control the progressive agenda. There’s more than one way to define it, too. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/372 "2018-03-23T11:59:22Z")
Yes, people in African villages have smartphones now. Worldwide, hunger and extreme poverty have plummeted in recent years, while literacy and other positive measures have risen. So why does the left wing gripe about how the PTB are supposedly taking us all to hell in a handbasket? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/373 "2018-03-23T14:38:18Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > A crypto-fascist is anyone who claims to be a “progressive” who is, in reality, a right-winger. So, basically, the typical American liberal. It also applies to centrists. Basically, right-wingers in sheep’s clothing. So, basically just a snarl word for anyone that doesn’t agree with everything you say. Got it. > [@](#): > > While nationalization would be nice, that’s not a requirement. Bernie certainly ain’t for it. He’s basically a social democrat. But still, that’s a hell of an improvement over the mess we’ve got now. Nationalization of what, exactly? I am for the govt in sectors where govt makes sense, but I do believe that the private sector is better for many things, especially as far as distribution of non-essential goods and services. You need healthcare, I think that the govt should make sure that happens. You want a pony, go buy your own fucking pony. Even in the cases of distribution of necessities, the private sector still does better than the govt, and it should be more on the govt to ensure that its citizens have the resources to attain the things they need, than to provide them directly. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/374 "2018-03-23T20:10:09Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Well congratulations on finding two (or more writers) who agree with you, but let’s not confuse editorials with hard evidence. There is no evidence at all that Bernie Sanders would have defeated Donald Trump, and as I said in the previous post: don’t just look at the fact that Bernie Sanders lost to the Democratic nominee by 3 million votes; look also at what has happened since then. Look at the Bernie Sanders wing of the party – how successful has Democratic Socialism been since November of 2016? Not very. > > I will acknowledge one thing: the same energy that fueled Bernie Sanders’ unexpected rise during the 2016 is also fueling progressive some badly needed energy in local races. So the same kind of insurgency is starting to pump life into progressive causes, with more activism on things like women’s rights, immigrants rights, confronting police brutality and racism, and gun control – I think the Bernie energy is there. But I’m not sure it’s really Bernie who’s responsible for this. More like an entire recoiling in horror at the naked ambitions of the radical right wing and deciding that we’re going to do something about it. I agree completely that the Democratic establishment needs to find a way to make room in its party for these kinds of progressives, but at the same time, these progressives need to be pragmatic and understand they don’t always get to control the progressive agenda. There’s more than one way to define it, too. _Trump’s own pollsters_ admitted Bernie would’ve stomped him. The fact that Hillary was such a weak-ass piece of shit candidate that she managed to lose to **Trump**. _ **Trump!** _ Jesus Murphy on a pogo stick, you just can’t admit that someone who managed to lose to Cheeto “grab 'em by the pu$$y” Benito was a shit ass candidate and would’ve been much better off stepping aside for a real progressive, can you? And you would be amazed at what can collapse and who can lose when they’re systemic corruption and rigging going on. I love how y’all bring up “Bernie lost”. Bernie only lost because the DNC rigged the system. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, basically just a snarl word for anyone that doesn’t agree with everything you say. Got it. > > Nationalization of what, exactly? I am for the govt in sectors where govt makes sense, but I do believe that the private sector is better for many things, especially as far as distribution of non-essential goods and services. You need healthcare, I think that the govt should make sure that happens. You want a pony, go buy your own fucking pony. > > Even in the cases of distribution of necessities, the private sector still does better than the govt, and it should be more on the govt to ensure that its citizens have the resources to attain the things they need, than to provide them directly. Lol! Thanks for the laugh! I get along with plenty of people I have disagreements with. I’m a Trotskyist. I get along with Maoists (except for the tankies), Luxembourgists, democratic socialists, social democrats, Posadists, anarcho-communists, anarcho-syndicalists
 the line is drawn at that center vertical axis on the political spectrum. Anything and anyone to the right of that line is, at their roots, _anti-civilization_ (civilization is defined by the hard fact of the nature of social animals from bees to horses - always takes a form that is translatable to a human left-wing ideology). nationalization in essential areas such as health Care and utilities, a mixed system elsewhere, in non essentials. Basically a “public option” for nonessential electronics, cars, etc. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, people in African villages have smartphones now. Worldwide, hunger and extreme poverty have plummeted in recent years, while literacy and other positive measures have risen. > > So why does the left wing gripe about how the PTB are supposedly taking us all to hell in a handbasket? > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Because the fact they have smartphones doesn’t change the fact that there is still a widespread underclass and that underclass is suffering and struggling, despite the flowery, but misleading and incomplete (no surprise you didn’t bring up the widening wealth gap, disparities in lifespan for rich vs poor, etc), statistics y’all “glass half full” types like to trot out. Y’all are a trip and a half, really. I’d be willing to bet that when radios hit the bottom of the economic pyramid in the late 1960s or so, people were making the same damn arguments. “They have radios and the colonial powers have left, so why are y’all damn hippies complainin’?!” For the suffering to end, and for humanity to have any kind of future that isn’t a continuation of the current dystopian novel we’re living in, true progressivism is needed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/375 "2018-03-23T20:55:53Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > _Trump’s own pollsters_ admitted Bernie would’ve stomped him. The fact that Hillary was such a weak-ass piece of shit candidate that she managed to lose to **Trump**. _ **Trump!** _ > > Jesus Murphy on a pogo stick, you just can’t admit that someone who managed to lose to Cheeto “grab 'em by the pu$$y” Benito was a shit ass candidate and would’ve been much better off stepping aside for a real progressive, can you? The predictions of trump’s pollsters do not interest me. That you would take the opinion of people working for trump as gospel from above is pretty silly. > [@](#): > > And you would be amazed at what can collapse and who can lose when they’re systemic corruption and rigging going on. I love how y’all bring up “Bernie lost”. Bernie only lost because the DNC rigged the system. Yes, they rigged the system by having more people vote for hillary. We shouldn’t have allowed that, and instead overturned the will of the people to get what _you_ want. > [@](#): > > Lol! Thanks for the laugh! > > I get along with plenty of people I have disagreements with. I’m a Trotskyist. I get along with Maoists (except for the tankies), Luxembourgists, democratic socialists, social democrats, Posadists, anarcho-communists, anarcho-syndicalists
 the line is drawn at that center vertical axis on the political spectrum. Anything and anyone to the right of that line is, at their roots, _anti-civilization_ (civilization is defined by the hard fact of the nature of social animals from bees to horses - always takes a form that is translatable to a human left-wing ideology). So, you get along with about 5% of those on the radical fringes of the left. That’s not a very good way to build a coalition. I get along with most people, on both sides of the aisle and all parts of the political spectrum. Sometimes people to the right of mehave good ideas, sometime it is the people to the left. To impose some sort of purity test before you even get into the ideas is foolhardy at best. > [@](#): > > nationalization in essential areas such as health Care and utilities, a mixed system elsewhere, in non essentials. Basically a “public option” for nonessential electronics, cars, etc. So, nationalize everything? I’m all for nationalizing services that the private sector is not able to provide, but the private sector is actually capable of proving the vast majority of everything we want or need. There is no reason to have a public option for non-essentials. Capitalism is really the best way of distributing limited resources to cover unlimited desires. It does have the downside of letting far too many people fall through the cracks, which is where a nationalized system to provide necessities is useful. But nationalizing everything means an abrupt end to innovation and growth. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/376 "2018-03-23T21:16:41Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > _Trump’s own pollsters_ admitted Bernie would’ve stomped him. The fact that Hillary was such a weak-ass piece of shit candidate that she managed to lose to **Trump**. _ **Trump!** _ Trump’s own pollsters are entitled to believe whatever they want, but considering they never ran against each other, they’re merely speculating, as you are. The evidence that matters is voting behavior, not polling. And the voting behavior does not support your arguments (or theirs, for that matter). I’ve already addressed the other points in your posts numerous times with multiple posters, so I’ll save some keystrokes. What I’d leave you with is a thought, and that thought is that real change requires multiple ingredients. Real change requires passion and a good value system, and I’ll give Bernie his due – he definitely possesses these attributes and that’s what I’ve always liked about him as a Senator. And I appreciated his raising the profile of certain issues as a protest candidate. But I think that some of Bernie’s contingent - and even Bernie himself at times - forget that real changes also requires opportunity and strategy. You can bang your head against the wall if you want and demand purity from other progressives but if the opportunity isn’t there to nationalize the health system, then its not there. And if you don’t have a strategy to capitalize on the opportunities that do exist, then you essentially do nothing at all and end up giving conservatives control of the agenda, which is partly how we ended up with an obstructionist congress after 2010 and partly why Obama found it much, much more difficult to deliver the goods for his progressive base after that point. It doesn’t help that people pick and choose the elections in which they want to participate in and pick and choose times when they want to select the progressive party. And in the meantime, while people sit around and wait for purity, we’re living with the consequences. If war breaks out in North Korea - totally preventable I’d add - will it have been worth it to allow Trump to win, just to crash the system? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/377 "2018-03-23T21:26:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The predictions of trump’s pollsters do not interest me. That you would take the opinion of people working for trump as gospel from above is pretty silly. Clintonites love to dance around this because whether Sanders would have beaten Trump is something that can never be proved conclusively. That said nearly all evidence that does exist suggests that yes, Sanders would have beaten Trump. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/378 "2018-03-23T22:37:22Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > For the suffering to end, and for humanity to have any kind of future that isn’t a continuation of the current dystopian novel we’re living in, true progressivism is needed. > **[Proof that life is getting better for humanity, in 5 charts](https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty)** > > A short-term perspective means we forget how much progress has been made in reducing poverty and mortality rates — and in much else. > [@](#): > > In 1950, three-quarters of the world was living in extreme poverty; in 1981, it was still 44 percent. For last year, the research suggests that the share in extreme poverty has fallen below 10 percent. Sounds like a dystopia, all right. What a nightmare! :rolleyes: I mean, what kind of world will it be in another 37 years if this trend continues?!? :dubious: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Clintonites love to dance around this because whether Sanders would have beaten Trump is something that can never be proved conclusively. > > That said nearly all evidence that does exist suggests that yes, Sanders would have beaten Trump. That’s silly. Sanders was a target rich environment, and there is no evidence that Americans in swing states are ready to elect a radical left winger—or they would have done so in the Senate or for governor. There are dozens of elections for those offices in those states over the past decade: where are these proof-of-concept test cases? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/379 "2018-03-24T00:13:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The predictions of trump’s pollsters do not interest me. That you would take the opinion of people working for trump as gospel from above is pretty silly. **Whack-A-Mole** summed it up quite well. The evidence speaks for itself. See below as well. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, they rigged the system by having more people vote for hillary. We shouldn’t have allowed that, and instead overturned the will of the people to get what _you_ want. Cheese and crackers, you’re denser than my homie Skelly. Love him, but that brotha doesn’t know a filibuster from a philodendron
 [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774) > **[New Proof That The DNC Was Just As Corrupt As You Thought It Was | Current...](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/new-proof-that-the-dnc-was-just-as-corrupt-as-you-thought-it-was)** > > \Even hyper-partisan Clinton surrogate Donna Brazile now admits the primary was rigged
\ > **[Former DNC Interim Chair Wants You All to Know the DNC Was as Corrupt as You...](https://www.gq.com/story/dnc-donna-brazile-confession)** > > Donna Brazile wants you to know she was shocked, shocked to find corruption in the DNC. > **[Just 32% Think Hillary Clinton Won Democratic Nomination Fairly](https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/november_2017/just_32_think_hillary_clinton_won_democratic_nomination_fairly)** > > Even a lot of Democrats are wondering if Hillary Clinton was really the choice of party voters last year following the release of a new tell-all book by Donna Brazile, former chairman of the Democratic National Committee. > **[Brazile: Hillary Rigged DNC Against Bernie](https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-robbed-sanders-dnc-brazile-699421)** > > The former DNC chair claimed Hillary Clinton's campaign reached an agreement with the DNC to take over the party's operations 15 months before last year's general election. > **[2016 Democratic National Committee email leak](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak)** > > The 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak is a collection of Democratic National Committee (DNC) emails stolen by one or more hackers operating under the pseudonym "Guccifer 2.0" who are alleged to be Russian intelligence agency hackers, according to indictments carried out by the Mueller investigation. These emails were subsequently leaked by DCLeaks in June and July 2016 and by WikiLeaks on July 22, 2016, just before the 2016 Democratic National Convention. This collection include The... > **[Ex-DNC chair reveals how Clinton ‘rigged’ Dem primary](https://nypost.com/2017/11/02/ex-dnc-chair-reveals-how-clinton-rigged-dem-primary/amp/)** > > Donna Brazile, former interim chair of the Democratic National Committee, said Hillary Clinton gained control of the political party before she won the presidential nomination in an effort to squee
 https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us\_59fb1a5ce4b0b0c7fa3866ea/amp [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Dnc+corruption](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Dnc+corruption) Have fun. Sorry the truth hurts. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you get along with about 5% of those on the radical fringes of the left. That’s not a very good way to build a coalition. I get along with most people, on both sides of the aisle and all parts of the political spectrum. Sometimes people to the right of mehave good ideas, sometime it is the people to the left. To impose some sort of purity test before you even get into the ideas is foolhardy at best. You believe that _social democrats_, who I mentioned and are the most moderate you can be on the left without being a centrist or right winger, are part of the “radical fringes of the left.” Ooh, ooh, lemme guess - you think American style liberals are “left” too, right? Lol. Give an average liberal the political compass test and they almost always end up on the right or dead ass center. The fact you think social democrats are “extreme left” speaks to this. But hey, I’m not surprised, Mr./Mrs. I Get Along With Everyone. If I gave enough of a fuck to look into it I’d probably find you in a thread about the neonazis/alt-righters/etc defending their freeze peach. :rolleyes: surprisingly, I don’t have such tolerance for people who think I’m subhuman and worthy of the gas chamber because I’m dark skinned, disabled, and like to boink other dudes. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, nationalize everything? I’m all for nationalizing services that the private sector is not able to provide, but the private sector is actually capable of proving the vast majority of everything we want or need. There is no reason to have a public option for non-essentials. Capitalism is really the best way of distributing limited resources to cover unlimited desires. It does have the downside of letting far too many people fall through the cracks, which is where a nationalized system to provide necessities is useful. > > But nationalizing everything means an abrupt end to innovation and growth. I never said a danggone thing about nationalizing everything being (absolutely) necessary. There can be room for a private-sector in non-essential Industries. However, I believe that there should be a public option in said Industries. “Capitalism is really the best way” my Aunt Fanny. There’s a reason why my generation, who is having to foot the bill for Reaganomics and more, now favors socialism over capitalism. [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article182765121.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article182765121.html) (Side note: those clowns at the “Victims of Communism Foundation” can kiss my big black ass. BadMouseProductions did an excellent takedown of “Communism killed a jillion kapillion tillion people and capitalism is awesome!!!” Here: [https://youtu.be/QnIsdVaCnUE](https://youtu.be/QnIsdVaCnUE)) > [@SlackerInc](#): > > [Proof that life is getting better for humanity, in 5 charts - Vox](https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty) > Sounds like a dystopia, all right. What a nightmare! :rolleyes: > > I mean, what kind of world will it be in another 37 years if this trend continues?!? :dubious: > > That’s silly. Sanders was a target rich environment, and there is no evidence that Americans in swing states are ready to elect a radical left winger—or they would have done so in the Senate or for governor. There are dozens of elections for those offices in those states over the past decade: where are these proof-of-concept test cases? > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk And fucking lol again. Bernie is a “radical left winger” like my name is Archibald Aloysius Von Heisselberg VII. He’s a \* social democrat!\* If he sneezes too hard he’d end up with one foot in the center! And Oh, my Lord. Lol! You can get a full deck to play with at Walmart for like two bucks, grab one. > **[Global Poverty, Beyond the Misleading Illusions of Statistics - ATD Fourth World](https://www.atd-fourthworld.org/global-poverty-beyond-misleading-illusions-statistics/)** > > This article, written, by Claire HĂ©don, president of ATD Fourth World-France, was published as an op-ed piece by La Croix (...) Read more → > **[What Do World Bank Poverty Statistics Really Tell Us? | Common Dreams](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/03/16/what-do-world-bank-poverty-statistics-really-tell-us)** > > The statistics upon which most poverty elimination strategies are based are extremely misleading, and often steer experts toward the wrong solutions. $1.90 a goddamn day is where that line is set. Let’s see you survive on $2 a day - above that “extreme poverty line” - and see how you do. Lol. But I guess, to you, stopping people at “regular poverty”, which is staggering and growing, is cause for celebration. > [@asahi](#): > > And in the meantime, while people sit around and wait for purity, we’re living with the consequences. If war breaks out in North Korea - totally preventable I’d add - will it have been worth it to allow Trump to win, just to crash the system? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322/380 "2018-03-24T01:26:53Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > Yes. Okay, well, at least you’re an honest broker. So what you’re saying, then, if I understand you correctly, is that a war with North Korea that potentially kills hundreds of thousands of people, a war with Iran that kills another few hundred thousand people, a possible trade war and massive deficits that devastate our economy
all that would be worth sending the Democratic party a message that they can’t just assume you will show up and vote AGAINST these things. Seems to me your bottom line is you’re angry at the system and you insist that everyone be as irrationally angry as you are, or you’re taking your ball and going home. That’s now how progress is made but I’m not going to convince you. As I’ve said numerous times before on this thread, the only thing that will convince you is for you to personally live the consequences of your voting behavior. Not just you, but everyone. That’s why I’m a chicken little (and I’m right for being one by the way) - because I know that the only way an ignorant society like ours will ever truly understand what it takes to value democracy is to flirt with its destruction. Hopefully that flirtation doesn’t go too far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bernie-go-to-hell-and-take-all-of-your-bros-with-you/809322.md?page=20)