# Hey, BlackKnight, ya cheap fuck! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592 "2003-05-07T04:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/61 "2003-05-07T12:27:55Z")
How would a USian waitron feel if someone came in and said nicely “I’m really, really sorry - I totally love the food here, but I only have enough to cover the cost of the food, so I might not be able to tip you.”? Hmmm… I also notice a certain US/European schism in this argument. If I was broke, I would think about the price of the food, and if I could afford it. And I’m guessing you’re saying that USians should think about the price of the food **+20%** , and if they could afford it. This might just be another of them unresolvable cultural differences. Also I didn’t realise that US wait-staff are taxed on non-existent tips. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/62 "2003-05-07T12:28:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Huh? how can they declare tips to be taxed that don’t exist? \*\* You pay taxes based on the total sales. Even the IRS presumes you are getting tipped on that amount. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/63 "2003-05-07T12:31:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Huh? how can they declare tips to be taxed that don’t exist? \*\* like [this](http://www.luca.com/cpajournal/old/10428232.htm) It’s not a copy of the actual IRS rule, because my first Google search didn’t find that right away, and I have to get to work, but it’ll do. Basically, it amounts to a report on how the IRS is bitching about employers not reporting _all_ tip income so that the IRS can tax the waitresses. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/64 "2003-05-07T12:33:12Z")
> [@](#): > > How would a USian waitron feel if someone came in and said nicely “I’m really, really sorry - I totally love the food here, but I only have enough to cover the cost of the food, so I might not be able to tip you.”? They wouldn’t say it, but I think they’d feel, “Well gosh, I really think you’re nice, but since I have bills to pay, I really can’t afford to SERVE you.” I mean, there’s a lot of things I love, but I can’t afford them, so I don’t buy them. There’s an A.B.S. dress I saw at Kaufman’s that I would kill for, but it was eighty dollars. I have the eighty dollars in my wallet, say, but I wouldn’t be able to afford other things that I NEED. So-_GASP_ I don’t buy it! And yes, they are indeed taxed on non-existant tips. Because the IRS assumes they’re being tipped. Yeah, it’s a really sucky system, but NOT tipping is not going to change it, it’s just going to screw someone over. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/65 "2003-05-07T12:34:30Z")
Ah, I might have read the question wrong (sorry, it’s early, and I’m in a bit of a hurry). Nevertheless, it’s on the link. Check down the page 2/3 of the way where it talks about the 8% allocation average. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/66 "2003-05-07T12:39:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **I mean, there’s a lot of things I love, but I can’t afford them, so I don’t buy them. There’s an A.B.S. dress I saw at Kaufman’s that I would kill for, but it was eighty dollars. I have the eighty dollars in my wallet, say, but I wouldn’t be able to afford other things that I NEED. So-_GASP_ I don’t buy it!** I get what you mean, Guin - what I’m saying is that, culturally, you assume a meal to be its price + 20% (or whatever) whereas I would assume the meal to be its price. > [@](#): > > **And yes, they are indeed taxed on non-existant tips. Because the IRS assumes they’re being tipped.** That changes my view of the issue somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![Jessity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jessity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jessity)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/67 "2003-05-07T12:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Garfield226 \* > \*\*This is what I see as the problem with the system. You agree the system sucks, but you (and servers in general) seem to always take it out on the non-tipping customers, instead of your EMPLOYER who is **legally responsible** for your check. > > It seems to me that in any other business, if someone’s living wage depended on the whim of their customers and wasn’t even legally required to be paid, and moreover, they’d be paid crap wages if the customer didn’t pony up, you’d see some massive striking. Yet, I’ve never heard of a waitpersons’ strike. Why do you suppose that is…? \*\* You’ve never heard of a waitpersons’ strike because it doesn’t happen very often. [http://www.hereunion.org/](http://www.hereunion.org/) is the webpage for the hotel and restaurant workers union. Not many waitpersons (such as myself) are actually in a union. If I strike, argue with my employer about my wage, or walk out because of it, there are going to be five more college students waiting to take my place. Doesn’t matter how well I do it, there’s plenty of bodies to fill the space, and they’ll run through any number of people to find the one who will stay and work a bit and do a decent job. I stay and work for $2.13 per hour because it isn’t a horrible job. My employer works with my school schedule. I am damn sure not getting rich, but I make more than I would if I worked in a department store or grocery store. Also, [here is the page for the Department of Labor concerning minimum wages for tipped employees by state](http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/state/tipped.htm). My employer doesn’t pay me more because they don’t HAVE to. I can get pissed off and “strike” all day, and nothing is going to happen except that I’ll lose my job. If every person I worked with walked out on the same day? Went on strike, as it were? Well, they’d call other stores from my franchise in the area, and get other waitresses to come work while they hired more. On a college campus with 50,000 other people, they’re not going to have that difficult a time finding new waitstaff. **jjimm** , we’re taxed on the tips we report. If I report $20 in tips per night, that’s what I’m taxed on. The more I make, the more I declare, the more tax gets taken out. Of course, waitstaff is _required_ by law to report all tips. The other thing is, as a waitperson, you have to make federal minimum wage. Which means that if I make $2.13/hour from my employer, I have to make $3.02/hour from my customers. No, that doesn’t always happen. Some nights are extremely slow. If I don’t make enough tips to bring my wage up to minimum wage, my employer is supposed to pay me the difference - doesn’t mean it always happens that way, but it is supposed to. My boss once told me that it didn’t matter if I didn’t make enough on Monday night, because I made more than enough on Friday night. So, no, we are not taxed on tips we didn’t make, but we are expected to claim 8-10% of our sales in tips, whether we actually make that money or not. > [@](#): > > The minimum aggregate amount the employer is required to report as tip income of employees generally is 8% of food and beverage receipts. If the aggregate amount of tips reported for any payroll period or calendar year is less than 8%, employers who qualify as large establishments must allocate the difference among tipped employees on either a “good faith” agreement, or on the allocation methods prescribed in Sec. 6053.3. > [@](#): > > Studies have indicated that most patrons tip between 10% and 20% of food and beverage total. Congress has allowed for customers dissatisfied with the serviceprovided, who may tip less than customary, and for those who may not tip at all, to arrive at the 8% average. So, yeah, I don’t just WANT a tip, I EXPECT a tip. Whether or not that is right or wrong of me, I don’t really care. It is what pays my rent, buys my school books, and gets me food to eat. And most people don’t say: “I’m really, really sorry - I totally love the food here, but I only have enough to cover the cost of the food, so I might not be able to tip you.”? They usually just be nice and walk out without tipping, leaving me wondering what I did that caused them not to tip me. On the other hand, I’ve had customers come back hours later or even a day later and give me money, saying they forgot to tip me or they didn’t have enough cash on hand that day to tip me. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/68 "2003-05-07T12:46:02Z")
Am so glad I don’t work in the US as a waitress to get screwed as such. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/69 "2003-05-07T12:52:41Z")
Once my wife was having a dental opperation, where she had to get knocked out for it. While under I went to a coffee shoppe and ordered a omlet. I was so concerned about the opperation that I just forgot to tip. I realized it the next day but havn’t been back there since (not in my area). I feel really bad about that. This is the only time I forgot to tip, I have unintentionally not tipped maybe 4 to 5 times due to bad service and teenage stupidity (yea, I thought I’d save a few bucks). I normally tip on service not on price. I usually am in places that the same order and usually the same sercvice cost $8 at one area and $16 in another (regonal difference). I see no reason that the the equal service should get unequal tips. Also since I rarely order soda (usually water) I take that into account as I know it takes the same work to serve water then soda but they would get a bigger tip usually with soda because of a higher bill. Also the tip declines sharply if I run out of water. I am considering modifying my tipping plan in a way though. Perhaps I should consider 10% giving away to the underpaid, sort of a non-taxdeductable charatable donation then tip on service above it. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/70 "2003-05-07T13:05:25Z")
[hijack] **Audrey** > [@](#): > > So yes, your attitude will affect the service you receive. If I have a busy bar, I’m going to take care of the nice people first; the rude and bitchy people will be served if and when I have time. I’ve gotta ask, how do you not get fired? I don’t mean any offence but I’ve had a great many bar jobs and if I’d shown that kind of favouritism like that that at any of them I’d have been _soooo_ fired. Do you own your bar? If so, can I come and work for you? 🙂 [/here endeth the hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/71 "2003-05-07T13:12:11Z")
A service person should NEVER complain to a customer about a tip (which happened to us once). You’re only obliged to tip when the service is good. One night, we were a buck short on our tip. We went back there a few weeks later and reimbursed our waitress. She was kind of shocked. I agree the system sucks, but whaddayagonnado? My kid waits tables. He gets stiffed fairly often. I got stiffed by a huge group of Europeans once. Boy, was I pissed! When I’m out with a bad tipper, I make up the difference myself. It’s just wrong not to tip properly in this society. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/72 "2003-05-07T13:13:57Z")
I guess to hijack my own thread, what do people who live in countries where there is no tipping because waiters are paid a living wage do when they get bad service? If people in the States stiff the waiter and complain to the management, do you folks complain to the management and ask for a portion of the waiters paycheck back? ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/73 "2003-05-07T13:33:13Z")
I would guess it would just be like all the other professions where you often tip but are not required to. I tip my hairdresser but I also know she makes a good wage without the tip. She gives me a good haircut, I give her a tip. It is still an incentive for her, but she is not dependant on me giving her a tip to earn a living. I think it’s a better system and I don’t understand why waitstaff is the only profession that cannot earn a living without tips. That said, I always tip, unless the service is terrible. Normal service gets 15%, good or excellent 20% or more. I have a hard time leaving if I know the waitress has been shorted a normal tip, even if it’s by others in my group. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/74 "2003-05-07T13:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > where there is no tipping because waiters are paid a living wage do when they get bad service? Usually our bills include a service charge in the bill. If there is one included, good service will be rewarded with an extra tip. If there is no service charge included, 10-15% is pretty standard, more for better service. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/75 "2003-05-07T13:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \* > \*\*I guess to hijack my own thread, what do people who live in countries where there is no tipping because waiters are paid a living wage do when they get bad service? > > If people in the States stiff the waiter and complain to the management, do you folks complain to the management and ask for a portion of the waiters paycheck back? \*\* Ooh, that’s a whole story in itself. On a number of occasions I have complained to the management. On a few occasions, when I have felt particularly aggrieved, I have refused to pay. In such cases I always leave my details so that they can contact me if they want to pursue a claim. The following is a pretty reasonable set of guidelines for how to complain effectively - [http://www.londoneats.com/news/news6.asp](http://www.londoneats.com/news/news6.asp) . For example: > [@](#): > > 1. The Food Takes Too Long To Arrive > What is ‘too long’ anyway? Longer than anybody else we think. Call over the waiter and ask how long before your meal arrives, as you have waited long enough. If they do not know, ask them to check with the kitchen staff. If the time they give you is not acceptable then you are perfectly within you rights to cancel your order, ask and pay for the bill (if you’ve had drinks or starters). Or if you are not in such a rush, you can ask for the manager and explain the situation them, recommending that they knock an agreed amount off the total of the bill. They have a whole list of “what ifs” addressed, but the main advice is complain at the time of your problem, not at the end of the meal. It’s always worked well for me. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/76 "2003-05-07T13:44:30Z")
What pisses me off are the people that pay exactly 15%. Exactly. If they have a check for $152.47, they’ll leave a tip for exactly $22.8705. Except that they will round fractions of a cent down. Would it kill them to just leave $25? These are not poor college students I’m talking about. These are filthy bloody rich people. My rule for food – 20%, plus maybe a buck or 2, rounded up. My rule for cabs – $3. Most fares are $10-14. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/77 "2003-05-07T13:53:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > I side with BlackKnight on this one - but I was born and raised in countries where you only tip for decent service,and I prefer that system. Someone who is good gets rewarded, shitty service gets unrewarded. This strikes me as fair. > > I firmly believe that I should be able to eat out at the price stated on the menu, with a tip only being required if I think the service was good. This also strikes me as fair. > > What strikes me as unfair though is when people should have salaries so poor it relies on the largesse of others to make up the deficit. If I was looking for a candidate for a cheap fuck, it would be the employers of such people. > > Your mileage on these points probably varies with country of upbringing, but I just don’t see what is desirable about a system where mediocre service should be rewarded and employers can skimp on wages. Actuala, **Gary,** the American tipping system is an example of equity and efficiency in action - or it would be but for cheap fucks like **Blacknight.** If everyone acts properly, both the cost of meals and the waitperson’s income would be the same in your country as in the US (setting aside differing costs of living, etc.) And it has the following advantages: 1. Because the tip is legally gratuitous, the diner avoids being taxed on the amount of the tip. The diner therefore saves money. 2. The waitperson gets the tip money immediately, rather than having to wait for payday. This avoids opportunity costs for the waitperson. 3. The owner of the restaurant avoids certain social taxes. 4. If the service is poor, the diner can express his/her displeasure by withholding or lessening the tip. Under your system, if the service sucks, all you can do is not give the waitperson a bonus. This ain’t much of a disincentive against bad service because the waitperson gets his/her normal pay for doing a bad job. Another (illegal) advantage is that the waitperson can more easily avoid income taxes, thus ending up with a higher income than under the “service charge is part of the cost of the meal system.” Of course, these efficiencies only work if people like **Blacknight** actually tip. If tipping dropped, restaurants would have to start including service charges, and all those nice efficiencies would disappear. **Blacknight** is an example of a ‘freeloader’ - because most Americans obey the system, **Blacknight** can pay a lot less than the rest of us for a meal. And under prevailing sociological theory, the appropriate response to freeloaders is ostracism. So bravo **Lola!** As for **Blacknight,** you are not only screwing the waitperson, you are also screwing the people who actually tip. Grow up, fuckwit! Sua ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/78 "2003-05-07T13:53:44Z")
I’ve tipped a counter service person before, but it’s rare. When we worked at Pizza Hut in college, my husband used to get a tip almost every time he cashed out this one woman or her husband when they picked up a pizza. They were such nice people overall. One time we ate out and forgot to tip our server, so the next time we went to that restaurant, we brought money for both our current server and the previous one. He was really shocked. 🙂 I won’t tip for bad service, unless the restaurant is just swamped and the servers are overloaded. I’m not even a picky diner, so if you’re bad enough to not get a tip from me, you’re pretty damn bad. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/79 "2003-05-07T13:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Velma \* > \*\*I would guess it would just be like all the other professions where you often tip but are not required to. I tip my hairdresser but I also know she makes a good wage without the tip. She gives me a good haircut, I give her a tip. It is still an incentive for her, but she is not dependant on me giving her a tip to earn a living. I think it’s a better system and I don’t understand why waitstaff is the only profession that cannot earn a living without tips. > \*\* Your hairdresser had to go to school to learn her skills. Waiting tables is one of the few professions that can earn someone a decent wage without even a high school degree, but it shouldn’t earn as much as someone who had to go on to school for their job. Unless you work at one of those snooty restaurants where servers can easily make $50,000 a year. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/80 "2003-05-07T14:05:24Z")
I’m a Lovely Shade of Brown[sup]TM[/sup]. Not only do I overtip but I even tip 15% for subpar service. I’d hate for someone to think I’m tipping poorly because of my skin color and not because they performed their job poorly. I’ll be glad when I grow up and stop caring about such things. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592.md?page=5)