# Hey, BlackKnight, ya cheap fuck! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592 "2003-05-07T04:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/101 "2003-05-07T15:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \* > \*\*Well, Gary, you may be the exception, but I would imagine many of the fine folk out there would very much take issue with their employer saying something like “You were not giving 100% yesterday, so I think I will take $50 off your paycheck this week.” > > Not only would they take issue with that, but they would most likely take the employer to court! \*\* As I say, performance related pay is a common occurence. From board level directors down to salespeople, I can think of many people who are paid on such a basis. Surely you’ve heard of it yourself? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/102 "2003-05-07T15:37:37Z")
Because you are paid to provide good service. If a customer is acting up, bring it to a managers attention. If the customer has a problem, regardless of how they behave (within common decency, and that includes flippancy, rudeness. ), you should do your best to rectify it. And providing sub par service is not punishing their behaviour, it is only incentive for them to behave worse. If a customer was an asshole, and requested that I do something that I couldn’t do, I would simply tell the customer that “I am sorry, but I am unable to do that”. I did not serve them bad as punishment. I reserved my judgement of them until I was finished work and got on with it. I have full sympathy for people under stress from ignorant customers. I fully understand the reality of how hard service jobs can be. But you are paid to provide the best service you can, regardless of their behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/103 "2003-05-07T15:44:18Z")
Well, **Lola** , if the service is shitty, I WILL only leave a penny or whatever. But it has to be really bad. That’s how the tipping system is supposed to work. As for giving good service to get a good tip-yeah right. Read the stories at Customers Suck. It’s crawling with stories about waitrons who gave their damndest 110%-only to get stiffed. **kanicbird** -it depends-do you mean that you tip MORE or less depending on price? Do you tip the 8 dollar dinner with the tip you’d give to a 16 dollar one? ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/104 "2003-05-07T15:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*As I say, performance related pay is a common occurence. From board level directors down to salespeople, I can think of many people who are paid on such a basis. Surely you’ve heard of it yourself? \*\* I surely have! And once again, I was using non-performance related jobs as an example. Are you suggesting that people who don’t work on a commission basis would be pleased if their employer deducted monies from their weekly paycheck based on their performance? Many of the above-mentioned professions get a base salary, and I have already established that waiters do not. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/105 "2003-05-07T15:49:20Z")
I agree, **Guin** - but in playing devil’s advocate I was wondering why is it acceptable in the waiting profession to not pay someone based on their performance, and not in most other professions? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/106 "2003-05-07T15:50:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \* > \*\*Once again, this is not how the system works, and until it changes, the customer is paying the waiter’s salary, not the employer. \*\* And once again, please note the word, “SHOULD” in my quote. Also please note the earlier mention by me that I always tip, because I realize what you said was true. Just because that’s how it is NOW doesn’t mean it’s the optimum system. Please explain why you would not favor a system in which your employer pays you at least minimum wage, and possibly more depending on what the market will bear, instead of collecting your wage from random people who walk in off the street. You’d be guaranteed at least as much as the next hourly worker. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/107 "2003-05-07T15:52:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\ ***SkipMagic** from your description, I would say no. If there’s a tip jar on the counter, I’d probably put any coins I recieved with my change in it. Usually when someone has a tip jar out, they’re not _expecting_ tips and they’re definately not taxed on them. > > And you’re welcome. 🙂 \*\* Thanks! Again! 😛 I can’t wait to tell **auntie em**! And really, I don’t mind tipping in those situations, I just bristle at the idea that I’m _obligated_ to tip at those places. Strictly voluntary for those meals, I feel. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/108 "2003-05-07T15:52:49Z")
**Zenster** , I actually felt sick after reading your post. I applaud you. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/109 "2003-05-07T15:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Garfield226 \* > \*\*Please explain why you would not favor a system in which your employer pays you at least minimum wage, and possibly more depending on what the market will bear, instead of collecting your wage from random people who walk in off the street. You’d be guaranteed at least as much as the next hourly worker. \*\* I never said I wouldn’t favor such a system! In fact I would love it! I am all for restaurants and bars raising their prices so they can afford to pay their staff a living wage so we don’t have to tip! But it just doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/110 "2003-05-07T15:56:30Z")
But waiting is clearly a performance related job, is it not? You do expect a good waiting person to earn more than a bad one? And this seems fair. A good waiter, waitress or barperson makes the customers visit more enjoyable. They deserve to be rewarded for it, would you not agree? So I do not understand how you can view their jobs as non-performance related. And I still don’t understand why someone would take a job with a possible salary of zero. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/111 "2003-05-07T16:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*But waiting is clearly a performance related job, is it not? You do expect a good waiting person to earn more than a bad one? > > And this seems fair. A good waiter, waitress or barperson makes the customers visit more enjoyable. They deserve to be rewarded for it, would you not agree? > > So I do not understand how you can view their jobs as non-performance related. > > And I still don’t understand why someone would take a job with a possible salary of zero. \*\* Well, yes it is performance related, however, with most other performance related jobs you get at least a base salary. I really am playing devil’s advocate here, btw. And people working at a job with the possibilty of making a salary of zero, is subhuman IMHO. I would like to see the laws changed. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/112 "2003-05-07T16:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \* > \*\*I would like to see the laws changed. \*\* Well geeze…you spend half the night and all morning arguing with me, and then we come to find we’re on the same side… …kinda… ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/113 "2003-05-07T16:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Garfield226 \* > \*\*Well geeze…you spend half the night and all morning arguing with me, and then we come to find we’re on the same side… > > …kinda… \*\* Well, I wouldn’t say half the night exactly! 😃 Yes, I agree I would like to see the system changed, but I am not willing to punish the waiter because I disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Star_to_the_Right)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/114 "2003-05-07T16:16:28Z")
I usually avoid the pit, but I can’t resist this one. …Why is this such an issue? JUST LEAVE A FUCKING TIP. (In the US) Waiters and waitresses are paid next to nothing to serve you food, grab you extra dressing/ketchup/napkins etc., keep your drinks filled, also while trying to do the same for several other tables, and are expected to do it all with a smile. I am aware that service is not always great. I’m not all that keen on the current system, either, but c’est la vie. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: If you don’t have money for a decent tip, you don’t have the money to eat out. Period. End of story. I almost wish they would just do away with tipping and just add a service fee to each bill, and pay servers a living wage. That way, this whole “I can afford to eat, but I want to get served for free” mentality wouldn’t be a problem. Psst… \*\* SkipMagic \*\* I think I know the kind of place you’re referring to. I usually leave a dollar or two, however, I’m not sure if that’s what’s expected or not. My rule of thumb for those kind of places is to tip, but considerably less than I would at an establishment where the server does all the work. Just my 0.02. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/115 "2003-05-07T16:45:18Z")
Have we reached any consensus here? Let’s try: (1) In the US, much of a wait staff’s take home pay is tip-related. Certainly not the only commission-only job out there. (2) A 15% gratuity is considered the norm for sit-down restaurants in the US; 10 - 20% is most common. (3) Wait staff have to pay taxes on 8% of total sales assumed to be earned tips. (4) Wait staff often have to tip other staff based on total sales. (5) Egregiously bad service should not be rewarded. The penny tip is better than leaving no tip, but best case is that a manager is notified as the problem is occuring. (6) Not tipping the wait staff, who generally is in no position to effect wholesale change to the current, in-place system, is extremely bad form, except as noted in (5). (7) The current system does have some merits. It keeps prices down (increasing salary by $3.00 per hour increases costs to an establishment more than $3.00 per hour, thanks to the wonderful world of payroll taxes). It’s an incentive for wait staff to provide the best possible service to all consumers. (8) The current system has some flaws. It relies on the largesse of the public at large, and shifts responsibility from the employer to the consumer. Have I missed anything? Lastly, I’ll side with those who do not try to turn an ass into a good customer. If someone comes in swinging his dick (or whatever the female equivalent is) around, they don’t deserve the same treatment as someone who shows the staff mutual respect. Expecting _lowly_ wait staff to lick your boots just because you’re a consumer is rotten behavior, and should be rewarded by prompt dismissal from anyplace such an nimrod takes his/her business, preferably by placement of boot to ass. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/116 "2003-05-07T16:45:36Z")
So are we all (apart from **Sua** ) in agreement that it’s an arcane and inequitable situation, that is open to abuse, but as a decent member of society, one should contribute to it until things change? _Steps back to take applause_ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/117 "2003-05-07T16:46:46Z")
I apologize for mixing second and third person pronouns in the last post. Two knuckle raps with the grammar stick for me. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/118 "2003-05-07T16:46:48Z")
Damnit, **D\_Odds** pipped me to it, and a lot more comprehensive too. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/119 "2003-05-07T16:49:29Z")
**jjimm** , stop stealing my applause 😉 ---
**Author:** ![monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592/120 "2003-05-07T16:50:46Z")
Lola, I’m with you, right up to the part where you say we should leave a tip no matter how the service is. I’m still not sure if you were just bringing it up for discussion, or if that is how you really feel. Tips are an incentive to give quality service. I’m a fantastic tipper (ex-waitress of 3 years), but if your service sucks, bad tip for you. And as an ex-server I understand the whole system. If you don’t like it, improve your service and I’ll tip you well. (Of course the “you” is the server, not “you”, Lola) And, people are punished in their jobs for giving a poor performance. The effect just isn’t as quickly felt as getting a tip. Your raises and bonuses probably aren’t as generous as if you were a more productive employee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-blackknight-ya-cheap-fuck/173592.md?page=7)