# Hey Bluesman, a question for you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916 "2003-05-13T10:27:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/101 "2003-05-14T16:30:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Ummm **Gary** was talking about the double standards of throwing names like “bleeding heart idiots” around but taking exception to being called a hawk. BTW you seem pretty hawkish to me. Throwing around words like cowardice and evil. \*\* So, I can’t support the war in Iraq ( while oposing the widening of that war elsewhere, Syria, for example ) without being a “hawk”? You must have some new definition of the term with wich I’m not familiar. Last time I checked, hawks were in favor of expanding the war to attack anyone they though looked funny at them. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*We’ll try again with small words, suitable for someone with your…challenges. > > The double standard is you protesting at someone labelling you a hawk, yet being quick to label me as a “bleeding heart”. > > Out of interest, if you have a look at my posts you’ll find very little objection to invading Iraq and/or deposing SH. What you’ll find objection to is the sheer stupidity of using “we have proof of WMD’s but cannot tell you” as a reason to get rid of a maniac. It’s dishonest and stupid. Now Bluesman was a very vocal exponent of this logic on these boards, so I’m going to do all I can to get some follow up from him on his previous boasts. > > Very nice strawman. Shame no-one has that stance, but thanks for playing anyway. You’ll note I even went to the trouble of linking to the mass graves post as an example of what I thought was a valid reason for this war. I am duly impressed that you somehow see this as evidence that I’m anti-war. Are you really this stupid, or just recovering from recent receive massive trauma to the head? \*\* Taking this post at face value, it seems that we have similar feelings about this war. Assuming that this is so, it means you have a modicum of intelegence, I am curious then as to why you felt it necessary to open this thread attacking a member of the U.S. intelegence community because evidence of WMD didn’t come to light immediately upon the conclusion of the fighting. Was it just a desire to pick all your nits? Get in a few good shots before WMD are found( or not, it could happen that way, y’know, in which case this thread would be apropriate, as it is it’s premature, to say the least )? IF WMD are found, am I going to see a thread titled “Bluesman, an apology for you”? You opened an attack on someone far before it was warrented, IMHO, and that’s why I’ve lumped you along with the rest of the idiots. If this is a misrepresentation of your position, then I apologise, but I would ask you to think a little more before you start attacking other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/102 "2003-05-14T16:37:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Maybe his knee gave him a good smack while jerking? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Does he not strike you as having far too much jerking experience to make that mistake? \*\* Interesting. My position on this war was arrived at by considering a great many factors, many of which I’ve posted elsewhere on these boards and am frankly too busy to go look up and too lazy to type all over again, and yet I’m having a “knee jerk” reaction? Pray tell, gentlemen, exactly how much deliberation has to go into something before it’s not “knee-jerk”?, or is that a term you simply whip out for anyone who would dare to have their own opinions, not mirroring what you’ve been told your own are? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/103 "2003-05-14T16:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **So, I can’t support the war in Iraq ( while oposing the widening of that war elsewhere, Syria, for example ) without being a “hawk”?** Sure you can. You just can’t get annoyed at people calling you a hawk when you simultaneously call those with opposing views “bleading hearts”. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/104 "2003-05-14T16:56:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ZiggyB \* > **You mean the regime that the US was supporting with financial aid and weapons sales before the Kuwait invasion? Yeah, that one.** Oh, please, what you’re talking about is 20 years ago. Your kind seem to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that international relations change from year to year, along with the manner in which one country treats another one. What Ronnie did 4 administrations ago is immaterial to what Dubbya is doing now. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ZiggyB \* > \*\*Another thought has crossed my “appeasement idiot” brain, Mr. Hawk (oh wait, I forgot I’m not allowed to call you a hawk because that would be insulting to you - my apologies :rolleyes: ) - what will it take for **you** to admit that the war was wrong? > If the US pulls out leaving a destroyed country and no government, _then_ would you admit that the war was wrong? > If Iraq becomes a civil war battleground with the Shiites fighting the Kurds fighting the Baath party survivors, _then_ would you admit that the war was wrong? > If the US paves the way for an oppressive Islamic fundamentalist government, like the US did in Afghanistan, _then_ would you admit that the war was wrong? \*\* Ummm…nothing? I think the war was the right thing to do, for reasons I’ve enumerated _ad nausium_. I am freely prepared to admit that follow up was lacking, or the reconstruction of Iraq was bungled or that the Shrub fucked everything up with his rampant fundamentalism _should any of those things come to pass_. Until they do, you’re just making stuff up to make you feel better about your worldview, rather than adopting a worldview based on reality. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/105 "2003-05-14T17:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Ah, right. > > Now why is it that the US are so determined to get the sanctions lifted now? \*\* Jesus Christ, John, I know you’re not this stupid, are you just trying to be difficult for no reason? Maybe because, I dunno, gee, the entire situation in Iraq has changed since sanctions were put in place and they’re trying to reintegrate Iraq into the world community of nations? You think that has maybe just the teensy, tinest bearing on the situation, or is it all just one big plot by Bush to invade every country in the world and convert everyone to Fundie Xanity? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/106 "2003-05-14T17:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Sure you can. You just can’t get annoyed at people calling you a hawk when you simultaneously call those with opposing views “bleading hearts”. \*\* Why not? They don’t think the lable fits, they can explain why, as I did. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/107 "2003-05-14T17:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **Oh, please, what you’re talking about is 20 years ago. Your kind seem to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that international relations change from year to year, along with the manner in which one country treats another one. What Ronnie did 4 administrations ago is immaterial to what Dubbya is doing now.** You know the problem with your kind **Weirddave**? You believe this sort of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/108 "2003-05-14T17:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*You know the problem with your kind **Weirddave**? You believe this sort of shit. \*\* Yea, because it’s true. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/109 "2003-05-14T17:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Why not? They don’t think the lable fits, they can explain why, as I did. \*\* they did. here and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/110 "2003-05-14T18:11:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Missy2U \* > **your cute “quote” number one from you I never said, nor implied in the manner in which you portrayed it.** Yeah, you’re right. I just get a little cranky over this issue. So, I’m sorry for that comment. It was pretty useless snarkiness on my part. As for the > [@](#): > > **Second, I never said or implied that spooje wanted to see Bluesman or Doors dead.** I had the same problem. I guess I’ve been reading to many “Anti-war == Anti-US” threads. So, my bad again. However, the “shut the fuck up” part still stands. If you’re going to toss it out at people for expressing opinions, expect to hear it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/111 "2003-05-14T18:57:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Jesus Christ, John, I know you’re not this stupid, are you just trying to be difficult for no reason? > > Maybe because, I dunno, gee, the entire situation in Iraq has changed since sanctions were put in place and they’re trying to reintegrate Iraq into the world community of nations? You think that has maybe just the teensy, tinest bearing on the situation, or is it all just one big plot by Bush to invade every country in the world and convert everyone to Fundie Xanity? \*\* Nice strawman. when there is a democratically elected government in place, in control of their own assets and capable of awarding their own contracts without outside influence, when U.N. inspectors can verify all the conditions that the sanctions were put down under are no longer an issue, then lift the sanctions. If the sanctions are lifted now, who do you think gets to award the contracts? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/112 "2003-05-14T19:08:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **Oh, please, what you’re talking about is 20 years ago. Your kind seem to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that international relations change from year to year, along with the manner in which one country treats another one. What Ronnie did 4 administrations ago is immaterial to what Dubbya is doing now.** _“Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”_ - **Santayana** Of course, Dubya wouldn’t be doing what he does if it weren’t for Ronnie. Dave, a child can see that. ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/113 "2003-05-14T20:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > Oh, please, what you’re talking about is 20 years ago. Your kind seem to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that international relations change from year to year, along with the manner in which one country treats another one. What Ronnie did 4 administrations ago is immaterial to what Dubbya is doing now. Immaterial? [U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29¬Found=true) Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds By Michael Dobbs Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01 > [@](#): > > Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an “almost daily” basis in defiance of international conventions. > > The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait – which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq’s acquisition of chemical and biological precursors – is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. … > > … The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague. Yeah, you’re right, that has **nothing** to do with what’s happening now. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Please tell me that you have **GOT TO** be kidding. > [@](#): > > I think the war was the right thing to do, for reasons I’ve enumerated _ad nausium_. I am freely prepared to admit that follow up was lacking, or the reconstruction of Iraq was bungled or that the Shrub fucked everything up with his rampant fundamentalism _should any of those things come to pass_. So the fact that the war will fuck up the lives of the Iraqi people much worse then they were under the Baath party regime doesn’t matter. Glad to see that your pretended concern for the plight of the Iraqi people was just a phony excuse. Does it matter that the USA was helping Saddam Hussein build chemical weapons to use on his people in 1983? No that was perfectly OK in your book. Don’t come in here with the whining of “the poor oppressed Iraqi people” then. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/114 "2003-05-14T21:40:27Z")
Ziggy, did you read that article or just skim to the parts that supported your argument? From the last paragraph “Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam,” said Joe Wilson, Glaspie’s former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. “Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation.” In other words, the US, faced with a choice between two evils, tried cultivating a relationship with the lesser of them, in the hopes that having established economic relationships, we could then \* peacefully \* lobby for reforms. What were our other options? We could have stayed out of it completely, but at the time, Iran was so rabidly, foamingly anti-American that this was perceived as a very dangerous situation. Now should we have sent them arms? In retrospect, probably not. As for the anthrax and other biological agents – although it sounds alarming, as many people pointed out when this article was first published, dissemination of such biological samples was pretty routine – there were legitimate agricultural and scientific reasons to want them. So yeah, we dealt with Saddam in the 80’s and perhaps deliberately turned a blind eye to the use of chemical weapons and human rights violations. In hindsight, a bad mistake. But I think a persuasive case can be made that our relationship with Saddam illustrates that the US did its best to avoid aggressive measures. Because if we had succeeded in forging stable and friendly relations with Iraq, their possession or lack of WMD would not be the issue it was today. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/115 "2003-05-14T22:24:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Nice strawman. > > when there is a democratically elected government in place, in control of their own assets and capable of awarding their own contracts without outside influence, when U.N. inspectors can verify all the conditions that the sanctions were put down under are no longer an issue, then lift the sanctions. > > \*\* You’re kidding, right? So, you’re advocating Ostrich diplomacy? Stick your head in the ground and hope that things turn out the way you want? Iraq will never have “a democratically elected government in place, in control of their own assets and capable of awarding their own contracts without outside influence” unless the country is rebuilt, personal security of Iraqi civilians is guaranteed and life there regains some degree of normalicy. If the U.S. just ups and leaves, I guarantee you that a Saddam-like dictator will grab and consolidate power, and we’ll be right back where we started. Anarchy breeds dictators unless there is a moderating force present to prevent it. Sure, the US and UK get to award the contracts, they’re the only organized force in the country right now, and these things have to be done before they can leave, unless you want another Cambodia on your hands. Coldfire- Would you please elaborate? Different administrations have different foreign policies. Perhaps I need to go back to Kindergarden, beacuse I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. Ziggy, you mad, conspiracy theorist, you. You’re so cute when you get worked up like this! What Finagle said. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/116 "2003-05-14T22:37:20Z")
where did I say anything about ostrich deplomacy? Are you actually reading anything I write, are just ignoring it as the words of a “bleeding heart”? the U.N. should be in there right now. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/117 "2003-05-14T22:42:28Z")
Dave, my point is that _“What Ronnie did 4 administrations ago is immaterial to what Dubbya is doing now”_ is at the very least a very poorly worded statement, if not outright stupid. Of _course_ it is material. Different policies, sure - although GWB perhaps would still gladly have supported Saddam had he not fallen out of grace. But what Reagan did, affects what’s happening now. Surely, that’s not too hard a concept? Saddam did NOT fall from the heavens to take over Iraq. He was handed the throne by previous US governments. To then state that’s “immaterial” is just dumb. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/118 "2003-05-14T22:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*But what Reagan did, affects what’s happening now. Surely, that’s not too hard a concept? Saddam did NOT fall from the heavens to take over Iraq. He was handed the throne by previous US governments. To then state that’s “immaterial” is just dumb. \*\* especially since we’re poised to ‘help’ set up another government in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/119 "2003-05-14T22:52:25Z")
Tell me about it. Don’t get me wrong, I love the US, its people, and its diverse landscape. It’s a country I’d gladly call home, should circumstances be that way. But when a US politician utters the words “regime change”, I duck for fucking cover. Not a good track record, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916/120 "2003-05-14T23:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*where did I say anything about ostrich deplomacy? > > Are you actually reading anything I write, are just ignoring it as the words of a “bleeding heart”? > > the U.N. should be in there right now. \*\* And they’re hiding their head in the sand. Remember “veto any resolution”? I’ve already said thet the optimal solution would have been to remove Saddam with U.N participation. The U.N wouldn’t do anything, for _twelve fucking years_ they attacked Saddam with worthless pieces of paper and seemed content to do so forever, slapping themselves on the back and telling themselves they were doing something productive, while millions died. Until the U.N reorganizes its charter and gets rid of things like the automatic vetos from the big five, it’s a joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-bluesman-a-question-for-you/174916.md?page=7)