# Hey, Chumpsky, how about you enlighten us. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100 "2003-01-07T04:28:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/21 "2003-01-07T11:53:29Z")
Actually, I think point 6 is unsustainable, but some universal university funding is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/22 "2003-01-07T11:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Erm, any chance you could explain to me how you’re going to have inter company contracts if you action point 9? \*\* Oh bollocks, I skipped over that one. Just ignore me altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/23 "2003-01-07T11:55:32Z")
And if we action point 10, I take it it’ll cover every nation (fair is fair) so just how far back do we investigate. Britain, France and most of the colonial nations could be in for some real bad times. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/24 "2003-01-07T12:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Also, don’t forget what Hayek’s Nobel prize was for: socialism fails because it destroys the very information by which prices are set. \*\* Don’t really know what that means exactly, but as far as it touches the real world, we should understand that economists like Hayek are paid to come up with the results they do. They thus prove that socialism fails, despite the numerous examples of socialist systems that have worked (for all their flaws). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/25 "2003-01-07T12:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > **And if we action point 10, I take it it’ll cover every nation (fair is fair) so just how far back do we investigate.** Since there’s currently an enquiry into the events of 1972 in Northern Ireland, how about 30-ish? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/26 "2003-01-07T12:06:15Z")
Point ten is interesting. We’ve done some bad, bad things. Of course, so has the rest of the world. And we are continuing to do some of those bad, bad things. What do we, as citizens, owe the rest of the world for some of the nasty stuff we pulled off? Why do we keep doing these things? Are they truly necessary for our continued prosperity? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/27 "2003-01-07T12:08:39Z")
(Noticing jjimm), 30 years isn’t really enough, there’s the whole Cuba pre-Castro thing and Latin America in the Kennedy and before administration. How about we say… post WWII. That’s when America became an active world power. Yes, it means that most other countries won’t be affected, but that’s okay. I’m not trying to say “We are evil”, just that “we might want to look at where our house is out of order.” Alternatively, we can say, “screw it.” ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/28 "2003-01-07T12:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **How do you propose that this society stays afloat? Sooner or later you’ll run out of rich corporations to fleece, so who pays then? Who provides jobs? Do they just come out of nowhere? If nobody pays taxes up to $50K, who pays? It shouldn’t be too long until nobody makes that much, since there won’t be any incentive to invest in businesses and the jobs will go away.** I will be just happy when there are no more rich corporations to fleece. Corporations originally existed as temporary organizations to fulfill a civic function, like building a bridge or something, after which their charters would be dissolved. It is not corporations that _create_ wealth. It is the workers, the creative and the industrious–those who come up with the new ideas, and those who do the actual work. The corporations then suck this wealth that has been created for themselves. There is no reason why we can’t arrange our economy so that the the great wealth of this country is invested in the people in a more equitable way. When you redistribute wealth downwards, you actually create more wealth, as you unleash the creative abilities of those who are shackled by poverty and wage-slavery. Just imagine what we could do if everyone had access to education and health care, and the chance to make a decent life for themselves. The current economy is arranged to intentionally create a vast force of unskilled laborers who make crap wages and work very hard creating the wealth of the country. This wealth is then concentrated into a very narrow sector of the society. This is simply criminal. > [@](#): > > \*\*And the military. Your favorite hard-on. Tell me more about what you would want to do about the military. I’m curious. \*\* The military should exist for purely defensive purposes. Among the other enormous advantages enjoyed by the U.S. is a relative immunity from attack by foreign armies. A military budget of $30 billion is more than enough to defend the country from any conceivable attack by a foreign army. The threat of terrorism will never be dealt with by military force. We must change our foreign policy to one of justice for all to reduce this threat. A side benefit of reducing the military budget is that it will free up an incredible amount of resources that are currently being wasted on waste production. Imagine what we could do with an extra $300 billion that isn’t being wasted on the military! We could invest in all sorts of things–from research into environmentally friendly energy sources, to health care and research, to education, and international aid programs to help societies that have been destroyed by the U.S. rebuild themselves. The U.S. could become a nation that builds instead of destroys. Yet another side benefit of this re-orientation is that the Third World that is kept deliberately poor would be freed to develop. As they develop and grow richer, so will we as opportunities for trade expand. It is a win-win situation for all, except for the current ruling class. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/29 "2003-01-07T12:14:55Z")
How nice to be 16 and have the luxury not to worry about taxes, or a job… Robin ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/30 "2003-01-07T12:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Don’t really know what that means exactly, but as far as it touches the real world, we should understand that economists like Hayek are paid to come up with the results they do. They thus prove that socialism fails, despite the numerous examples of socialist systems that have worked (for all their flaws). \*\* Please give an example of a working socialist system Please give an example of Hayek lying. Thank you ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/31 "2003-01-07T12:29:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*Point ten is interesting. We’ve done some bad, bad things. Of course, so has the rest of the world. And we are continuing to do some of those bad, bad things. > > What do we, as citizens, owe the rest of the world for some of the nasty stuff we pulled off? \*\* I would propose taking $100 billion from the current military budget and putting it into a fund for reparations and international humanitarian aid. A few examples of where the U.S. is hugely indebted for its monstrous crimes: 1. Vietnam. The U.S. dropped more than 3 times as much tonnage on Vietnam than all combatants dropped in all of WWII. It dropped napalm and toxic chemicals to destroy crops. It destroyed the civilian infrastructure, basically, along with over 1 million civilians. After the war, the U.S. imposed a blockade on the nation in an attempt to bleed it dry. When India proposed sending 100 water buffalo to Vietnam to replace its depleted supply of the vital draught animal, the U.S. applied pressure to India to rescind the offer. The U.S. owes Vietnam many tens of billions of dollars for the damage it did, and for the brothers, sons and daughters it took from the people of Vietnam. 2. Nicaragua. In 1986 the World Court ordered the U.S. to cease its murderous attack on the backward nation of 4 million and to pay $17 billion in reparations for damage. Instead, the U.S. dismissed the ruling with contempt, and to this day collects hundreds of millions of dollars per year from Nicaragua in interest on odious debt obtained by the Somoza regime. At the minimum, the U.S. owes Nicaragua the $17 billion, and a cancellation of Nicarauga’s debt. 3. Chile, Guatemala, Iran, Dominican Republic, East Timor, Congo. All of these countries had democratic governments overthrown by the U.S. or its proxies and dictatorships installed that brutally repressed their populations. The U.S. should pay massive reparations to all of these countries. 4. Palestine. For 3 decades the U.S. has been the main obstacle to peace in the Middle East. The U.S. should end its rejectionist stance, and help to build a viable Palestinian state. Every family that has lost family members at the hand of the IDF should be compensated. 5. El Salvador, Indonesia, Iraq, Columbia, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Argentina, Brazil. These countries were or are ruled by proxies of the U.S. who brutally repressed their people. The U.S. should end military support in the cases where it still provides such, and send humanitarian aid to NGOs to aid the people. 6. Cuba. Cuba has been the target of the most sustained terrorist attack of any country in modern history, beginning in 1959 and continuing to the present day. All sanctions should be lifted on Cuba, and reparations should be paid for the damage inflicted. All families who lost members from U.S. sponsored terrorist attacks should be compensated. 7. Grenada, Libya, Panama, Sudan, Serbia and Iraq. These countries have been invaded or bombed outright by the U.S. Massive reparations should be paid for the damage done. The list could go on, but these are the main ones, I think. > [@](#): > > \*\*Why do we keep doing these things? Are they truly necessary for our continued prosperity? \*\* _We_ DON’T do these things. The ruling class does these things, and they do them for their own benefit. There is no benefit to US. In fact, it is directly harmful to US, since we pay for these things, and we lose out on the goodwill and trade opportunities of the people our government oppresses. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/32 "2003-01-07T12:32:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Don’t really know what that means exactly, but as far as it touches the real world, we should understand that economists like Hayek are paid to come up with the results they do. They thus prove that socialism fails, despite the numerous examples of socialist systems that have worked (for all their flaws). \*\* Err…which would those be? Seriously, I’d like some reading material. Re: some of your points: > [@](#): > > \*\* > > 1. Raise the minimum wage to $12 and provide jobs to everyone willing to work.\*\* So you’d have us pay $12/hr to people on the east side of the road to fill balloons, and people on the west to pop them? OR, how does a government go about ‘providing’ jobs? > [@](#): > > \*\* > 5) Democratize the media: outlaw TV advertising to children; outlaw paid political advertisements; mandate that 4 hours per day of the major channels be given over to public, democratic broadcasting for educational and news services. Pay for it with a tax on the major media corporations.\*\* So a media controlled by the state is better than a media controlled by business. Why? > [@](#): > > \*\* > 9) Put an end to the corporate personhood fiction. \*\* I’m sorry, I don’t understand this one at all. Can you please elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/33 "2003-01-07T12:33:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Actually, I think point 6 [free education for all] is unsustainable, but some universal university funding is a good idea. \*\* Why? Most European countries have publicly funded education. Some even provide living expenses. Hell, even Iraq used to have free education for all up through the Ph.D. level! The U.S. is by far the richest country in the world, with enormous advantages over any other country. There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t be able to educate our people. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/34 "2003-01-07T12:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > **So you’d have us pay $12/hr to people on the east side of the road to fill balloons, and people on the west to pop them? OR, how does a government go about ‘providing’ jobs?** Take a drive through any major city in the U.S. and you will see plenty of work that needs to be done and plenty of people who need work. The problem is to connect those two things together. We have many millions of bright, creative people, and there is no reason why we can’t solve this problem if our tremendous resources were unleashed. Several countries have had universal employment, among them the former Yugoslavia before it was dismembered by NATO. There is no reason why the richest country on Earth can’t find a way to employ its citizens. > [@](#): > > \*\*So a media controlled by the state is better than a media controlled by business. Why? > \*\* A media controlled by business is an absolute disaster. Simply turn on the TV and see what you get. I suppose, if you think that this product is acceptable, then I can’t really argue against it. However, many people, including myself, find the pathetic drivel that pours out of the mass media to be appalling. A more participatory, democratic media system would be much, much better. This is not the same as a state controlled media. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m sorry, I don’t understand this one [on ending corporate personhood] at all. Can you please elaborate? \*\* Corporations have been granted the _de facto_ status of immortal persons. In fact, they enjoy much more rights than do mere people. This should end. No organizations should have rights. Only people should have rights. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/35 "2003-01-07T12:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Don’t really know what that means exactly, but as far as it touches the real world, we should understand that economists like Hayek are paid to come up with the results they do. They thus prove that socialism fails, despite the numerous examples of socialist systems that have worked (for all their flaws). \*\* Kindly assail the man’s assertion, rather than the man. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/36 "2003-01-07T12:57:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > **Please give an example of a working socialist system.** The former Soviet republics, the former Yugoslavia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Grenada before it was invaded by the U.S. For all of their flaws (and there were many) these were socialist systems that did work. Russia dragged itself into the industrial age under socialism, from what was a mainly agrarian society, to become a major world power. One should understand the tremendous obstacles these societies faced and overcame with varying degrees of success. In no case has any socialist nation ever had a day’s peace from the hostility of capitalist encirclement. It has always been a sort of “siege socialism.” Yet, in many cases, despite the numerous lies you have been told, there was significant popular participation in government, far beyond what we have in the U.S. In Yugoslavia, for example, 20 political parties were represented in the parliament before the NATO attack started in 1990. Obviously, the U.S. would not have to face the difficulties of siege socialism, and would be free to invest its resources in the people. It could be a great civilization. > [@](#): > > \*\*Please give an example of Hayek lying. \*\* Well, when you “prove” that socialism fails, it’s sort of like proving that 2+2=5. Since we have plenty of examples where socialism has worked, proving that it doesn’t is sort of deceptive, although I never said he lied. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/37 "2003-01-07T13:31:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **Take a drive through any major city in the U.S. and you will see plenty of work that needs to be done and plenty of people who need work. The problem is to connect those two things together. We have many millions of bright, creative people, and there is no reason why we can’t solve this problem if our tremendous resources were unleashed.** You did not answer my question, which is **How** does the state go about providing jobs. What “work” do you refer to which needs doing? Construction? It’s being done. Repair? It’s being done. Sanitation? Again, being done. These jobs are all being filled according to the money that is available for each. You can forcibly take money from other sources right now, because money is plentiful. But how do you support your system when other peoples money runs out? \*\* > [@](#): > > Several countries have had universal employment, among them the former Yugoslavia before it was dismembered by NATO. There is no reason why the richest country on Earth can’t find a way to employ its citizens.\*\* Well, what if they don’t want to be employed in whatever field needs work? Do we make something up for them? \*\* > [@](#): > > A media controlled by business is an absolute disaster. Simply turn on the TV and see what you get. I suppose, if you think that this product is acceptable, then I can’t really argue against it. However, many people, including myself, find the pathetic drivel that pours out of the mass media to be appalling. A more participatory, democratic media system would be much, much better. This is not the same as a state controlled media.\*\* You don’t seem to understand that we do have a democratic media system right now. The people get what they want. Many people do “find the pathetic drivel that pours out of the mass media to be appalling”, but they’re the minority. The people who tune in do so of their own free will, and they tune to what they want to see. The broadcasting companies see this and respond with more of the same. Fox did not push their product down peoples throat. Jerry Springer does not send goons out to the trailer parks and force people to watch. The people have what they want. \*\* > [@](#): > > Corporations have been granted the _de facto_ status of immortal persons. In fact, they enjoy much more rights than do mere people. This should end. No organizations should have rights. Only people should have rights. \*\* Can you give an example? I’d like to know more about this “de facto status of immortal persons” and the rights of these organizations. I still don’t follow you on this one. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/38 "2003-01-07T13:45:29Z")
Jjimm, the only problem is who dies the investigating. You could have another Widgery on your hands. personnally, I hope the new inquiry will actually provide the truth, and not a political whitewash as happened previously. the only bad thing is that the Soldiers will never answer for their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/39 "2003-01-07T14:21:19Z")
In response to a request for working socialist system, you give > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **The former Soviet republics, the former Yugoslavia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Grenada before it was invaded by the U.S. For all of their flaws (and there were many) these were socialist systems that did work.** What a splendidly creative definition of working socialism we seem to have arrived at here. As someone who has visited Cuba, I would suggest you not provide this as an example of a thriving nation. I would also point out that China is not exactly the sort of example of a socialist nation you’d want to base your arguments on - it’s most thriving sectors are the ones where capitalism is allowed on license, and its ruling system is hardly " egalitarian, democratic and humane" Or are these only essential goals when we’re talking about the USA Then, as the perfect example of sophomoric arguing, we have this gem > [@](#): > > \*\*Well, when you “prove” that socialism fails, it’s sort of like proving that 2+2=5. Since we have plenty of examples where socialism has worked, proving that it doesn’t is sort of deceptive, although I never said he lied. \*\* In that case, as I can give far better examples of working capitalism than you can give examples of working socialism, what the fuck should I make of your rhetoric? I really am starting to wonder about your logic on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/40 "2003-01-07T14:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*A media controlled by business is an absolute disaster. Simply turn on the TV and see what you get. \*\* As opposed to the uplifting quality broadcasting that the soviets put out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100.md?page=3)