# Hey, Chumpsky, how about you enlighten us. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100 "2003-01-07T04:28:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/121 "2003-01-09T01:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* Many will argue that Stalin’s harsh rule was necessary to prevent the conquest of Russia. I don’t know…Yet, for all of Stalin’s crimes–and there is nobody who defends them–_\* Hmm…wasn’t it you, **Chumpsky** in [your GD thread about Russia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=154849), who said: _“Let’s say, for example, that 10 million die during forced industrialization in the face of an impending invasion. Then, let’s suppose that this industrialization saves the country from outright conquest…Rummel and the other anticommunist fanatics want to blame Stalin for every death in the Soviet Unions, but they will not give any credit for the good that came from forced industrialization, such as defeating Nazism.”_ Yup, our **Chumpsky** defending Stalin’s crimes and claiming they were necessary to defeat Germany. Not only are you evasive, but you contradict yourself from one moment to the next. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/122 "2003-01-09T02:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*But, in many ways, the states that called themselves socialist did make lives better for millions of people. \*\* That’s nice. But in many ways they made lives worse for millions of people…or just ended them altogether. It’s a mixed bag. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/123 "2003-01-09T03:00:34Z")
I too would like to thank **Chumpsky** for toning down the rhetoric a bit and posting something articulate and thoughtful, albeit still somewhat unsupported. It’s still a step in the right direction. 🙂 Now, if he could just stop accusing me of being a murderer-for-hire, I think we’d get along just fine, even though I’ll almost certainly never agree with him. In his defense, though, I’ll let you all in on a little secret: I personally think Communism is a great idea. Share and share alike. Can’t beat it. However, I think we all know that true Communism can never work, and socialism as practiced throughout the world hasn’t proven to be anything but opressive and unwieldy at best. So count me as a capitalist. As I see it, it’s the best we have right now. In the future, it is possible that that may change. I’m open to that change, if it’s in fact truly better and not just some jerk blowing smoke up my ass. All you have to do is convince me, **Chumpsky**. Good luck. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/124 "2003-01-09T03:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*This thread illustrates, in many ways, the difficulties involved in the class struggle in the modern world. The first, and most obvious, point is that anybody who wishes to change the world for the better must fight against 70 years of intense propaganda and indoctrination that we are saturated in since birth. One cannot fully understand the full extent of this indoctrination until one trys to shuck it off and look at things afresh. As I have progressed in my attitudes from a laissez-faire capitalist toward communism, I have noticed with great clarity how many layers upon layers of indoctrination must be peeled off. There are so many misconceptions exhibited in this thread that it simply overwhelms me. It is impossible to deal with them all at once. \*\* In other words, you’re saying that the reason people in this thread don’t agree with you is that they’re stupid. Generally speaking, saying “you are stupid” does not constitute evidence that your position is the correct one. On the other hand, it’s the argument most often used by the ignorant and the rude. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/125 "2003-01-09T04:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **There are so many misconceptions exhibited in this thread that it simply overwhelms me. It is impossible to deal with them all at once.** After having read this whole ridiculous thread, I, for one, would be **ecstatic** to see you deal with **any** of your misconceptions and outright lies. Weasling and attempting to say that you didn’t REALLY mean what you posted don’t cut it bub. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/126 "2003-01-09T04:37:13Z")
I’m still wondering about **Chumpsky** ’s vigorous defenses of Milosovic’s Yugoslavia. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **Several countries have had universal employment, among them the former Yugoslavia before it was dismembered by NATO. There is no reason why the richest country on Earth can’t find a way to employ its citizens.** > … > \*\*Plus, you know, I never noticed a huge flood of people trying to escape from socialistic Sweden into more capitalistic England, or the tide of people trying to get out of Yugoslavia in the 1980’s to get into capitalist Greece. \*\* > … > **The former Soviet republics, the former Yugoslavia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Grenada before it was invaded by the U.S. For all of their flaws (and there were many) these were socialist systems that did work.** I never did support the NATO bombing, but, you know, I’ve also never heard a Kosovar claim that the former Yugoslavian state had full employment, “worked,” or weren’t trying to get the hell out of there. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/127 "2003-01-09T05:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*In other words, you’re saying that the reason people in this thread don’t agree with you is that they’re stupid. \*\* Where have I ever said that? No, what I say, and I maintain this, is that Americans are the most propagandized and indoctrinated population in history. We are saturated with anticommunist propaganda from the time we are born–in schools, in the news media, in entertainment–everywhere. This comes from all sides of the political spectrum. In fact, liberals in the U.S. are often more rabidly anticommunist than conservatives, since they have to prove their anticommunist credentials. Anticommunism is our state religion. I don’t blame people, or think they are stupid, if they entertain illusions about certain things. Propaganda is very effective, and has been developed to its highest form in the U.S. I was just as affected by it as anybody else, and developed as an anti-communist, pro-capitalist, red-blooded American. I continually find new illusions that I have maintained, new layers of indoctrination that must be unpeeled. I literally had no idea of the crimes the U.S. had committed, thought that the USSR was a totalitarian tyranny with no redeeming features, and that communism was a cancer to be wiped out. You know, all of the basic things that we are taught since birth to believe, that we are taught are obvious truths, to be accepted just as we accept that the sun comes up in the East. I can give you some examples. For some reason I remember quite clearly watching the news when I was about 13. This was at the height of the Cold War when the U.S. was attacking Nicaragua with its proxy mercenary army the Contras. I remember that the news reader (I think it was Peter Jennings) was reading a report about some Contra successes in shooting down Nicaraguan airplanes. I remember clearly having this overwhelming feeling of foreboding at the Nicaraguan regime, and hoping that the beleagured freedom fighters would be able to prevail against the enveloping darkness. It was only many years later that I learned about the Sandinista revolution, and found that there was a vastly different interpretation of the situation, one where it was the U.S. that was the aggressor, one where the Nicaraguan people were defending themselves against a superpower attack. Yet, this interpretation would have been as foreign to me, at the time, given what I was shown, as the sun rising in the west. Now, what is important about this is that, at that age, I could only have recieved this impression through a very careful presentation. It was not that the newsreader came out and said these things, but the assumptions that underlied the presentation. This is the true power of propaganda–in the unspoken assumptions, in the things we are told to take for granted. So often, they pass unnoticed directly into our consciousness, unseen and un-examined. There are countless examples. Let me give you another example that is more straightforward propaganda, with plenty of conscious deception. The first time I ever heard of [Mumia abu Jamal](http://burn.ucsd.edu/~mai/news3/2020.html) was on a 1998 20/20 episode. After watching this episode, I was totally convinced that Mumia was guilty of murder, and that he should be executed. Further than that, though, I was amazed that he had any supporters! How could those idiots support this guy, I wondered. Well, later I learned, at the urging of some friends, some more about the situation, and found that there was a much different interpretation of events. I discovered that 20/20 had not only misled with their presentation, but that they had lied outright on numerous points, and had left out information crucial to the defense. This was nothing less than a determined effort to convict Mumia in the popular press. Here is the thing. This is the ONLY interpretation you will find in the mainstream mass media. If you want to hear things from Mumia’s point of view, you have to go to the alternative, dissident press. Thus the problem. When I watched the 20/20 episode, I certainly wasn’t a gullible person, and considered myself to be pretty skeptical. I thought that, whatever their shortcomings, they wouldn’t stoop to outright lying, and that what they had to say would more or less match the actual facts. This seems to be a pretty a pretty reasonable position. We generally are predisposed to think that people are telling the truth, more or less, especially when it comes from an established source. Yet, this is exactly the problem. Not only does the establishment not tell the truth all the time, but they lie to us continuously. The main media and other doctrinal establishments are heavily biased for the ideology of the ruling class. If we think about this, it is actually what we would expect. We should expect that the major institutions primary purpose for existing is to serve the interests of the powerful. Thus, when people are misled, it is not because they are stupid. They have just been misled. I like to think of this quote from Ghandi: “We don’t want to bring our opponents to their knees; we want to bring them to their senses.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/128 "2003-01-09T07:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*This thread illustrates, in many ways, the difficulties involved in the class struggle in the modern world. The first, and most obvious, point is that anybody who wishes to change the world for the better must fight against 70 years of intense propaganda and indoctrination that we are saturated in since birth. One cannot fully understand the full extent of this indoctrination until one trys to shuck it off and look at things afresh. As I have progressed in my attitudes from a laissez-faire capitalist toward communism, I have noticed with great clarity how many layers upon layers of indoctrination must be peeled off. There are so many misconceptions exhibited in this thread that it simply overwhelms me. It is impossible to deal with them all at once. > > The second aspect that must be confonted is a familiar one, but which is heightened to the nth degree in our modern age, namely fear of change. The only consistent argument given in this thread for the maintanence of the capitalist system is one given by Margaret Thatcher, the TINA argument–There Is No Alternative. Or, at least, there is no better alternative. The degree of fear this attitude exhibits is remarkable, and is a direct result of a very conscious effort to drive home the idea that socialism=gulag. In fact, this very idea has been promoted often on this board, by posters who complain that I should take a tour of Stalin’s gulags if I think capitalism should be done away with. Of course, anybody who is opposed to capitalism is anxious to put Stalin’s gulags in its place. :rolleyes: \*\* OK, it’s sophomore rhetoric time again is it? Let me be as brief as I can, in response to your verbosity. There are many alternatives, but the one you propose has been a failure in every case it’s been tried. Also it was you who started the “take a walk in slums” claim, so your a hypocrite to then condemn those who said “take a walk in gulags”. You have repeatedly failed to put up a country in my request for the best ecample of working socialist nature. I will ask you once more to do so, but failing this I must dismiss your posts as further vacuous nonsense, of the condescending nature displayed in the first paragraph I’ve quoted. Put up/shut up. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/129 "2003-01-09T07:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > **You have repeatedly failed to put up a country in my request for the best ecample of working socialist nature.** Well, since you seem to want to dismiss what I actually say, let’s try a new tactic. Show me a socialist state that has been allowed to develop in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/130 "2003-01-09T08:42:32Z")
I will, on the express providing that you answer my question first. Failing that you will purely use it as an opportunity to yet again avoid the fucking question by whining on about how any state I name has been cruelly repressed. So, you have my promise. I will happily answer your question just as soon as you answer mine. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/131 "2003-01-09T08:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*So, you have my promise. I will happily answer your question just as soon as you answer mine. \*\* You are asking a loaded question. You ask for the best example of a working socialist state, implying that this is the best that can be done. This neglects the historical conditions. Like I have said, the Cuban Revolution was successful in that it made life better for the vast majority of its citizens. So, there is an example. One should also ask the question of WHY the capitalist states have been so petrified at the spread of communism. WHY, exactly, was the U.S. anti-communist? WHY was it so fearful of what Arthur Schlessinger called the “spread of the Castro idea of taking matters into your own hands”? If capitalism truly is superior, then WHY has the U.S. so often used force and guile to crush socialist countries? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/132 "2003-01-09T08:53:33Z")
To recap then, and strip out the bollocks, you say that Cuba is the most succesful socialist nation? I feel that it’s important, with you, to be absolutely clear on this. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/133 "2003-01-09T09:15:06Z")
_Show me a socialist state that has been allowed to develop in peace._ Irony of ironies! One of the best examples I can think of is post-Independence **Israel**! (barring of course they weren’t exactly allowed to develop in peace). The country was transformed by kibbutzim and moshavim (collective and co-operative farms respectively). However I think this brings up an important fact. Socialism works (or at least seems to work) only on a very small scale (Kibbutzim have at most a few hundred people). When it comes to large populations however it does not scale well. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/134 "2003-01-09T09:27:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **No, what I say, and I maintain this, is that Americans are the most propagandized and indoctrinated population in history.** I’m not going to bother asking for a cite because none will be forthcoming but christ man, “the most propagandized and indoctrinated population in history”? In most of your “socialist paradise” coutries there’s ONE source for the news and it’s run by the government. Compare that to the US, where’s several socialist/communist papers are available. Sure, their circulation is very meager, but that’s not because of gov’t mandate, it’s because they can’t compete in the free market of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Coil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Coil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/135 "2003-01-09T10:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*I never said that Sweden is a socialist country. I referred to “socialistic Sweden.” Sweden has mixed economy, but the Scandanavian countries are far more _socialistic_ than the other western capitalist states. These countries, as part of western capitalist Europe, must be dealt with on a diplomatic basis. For obvious reasons, they cannot be attacked outright. But, one should also note that the socialistic gains made by Scandanavian workers were only made after decades of bitter popular struggle. They were not a gift from on high. Chumpsky\*\* it is quite obvious that your knowledge about Sweden, the rest of Scandinavia and even of western Europe is quite limited. Your description of the scandinavian countries as socialistic reveals that you either do not know what you are talking about and/or that you have a very strange definition of what is a socialistic country. I guess Sweden could be called a mixed economy but then so could the US, Britain, Germany, Canada and a whole bunch of other countries. Sweden is a market economy. Healthcare and education is however mostly run by the state and pensions were previously amost completely handled by the public sector. This is paid for by taking rather high taxes (the highest or among the highest in the world depending on when you are looking and who is looking) from everyone. But this is not something unique to Sweden, schooling and healthcare in Britain is also to a large degree run by the public sector (ever heard of the National Health Service in Britain?). Same thing for Germany and France quite a lot is run or financed by the public sector via taxes. One of the main differences between the western industrialised states is how they have chosen to finance and run healthcare, schooling and the social security net. In Europe several countries have chosen to do this via the tax system and quite often the public sector also runs a lot of the hospitals. In the US on the other hand there is a larger reliance on financing these things via different insurance solutions. Sweden has never been attacked outright by the US. We have also never been attacked in other ways. In fact the opposite is true. The US and Nato have during the cold war supported Sweden, despite our publicly stated neutrality between the blocs. Sweden had quite extensive dealings with the western bloc. Sweden had for example as good access to US military technologies as the members of Nato. When we developed our own fighter jets we got access to US engine designs and missile technology. Would the US give this to a country they considered an enemy? Oh and please respond to Garys request for your example of a successful socialist country. You may feel that you have already said it a million times, but please humor us and type it in again (make it bold and in red so that we cannot miss it). ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/136 "2003-01-09T12:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > No, what I say, and I maintain this, is that Americans are the most propagandized and indoctrinated population in history. We are saturated with anticommunist propaganda from the time we are born–in schools, in the news media, in entertainment–everywhere. This comes from all sides of the political spectrum. In fact, liberals in the U.S. are often more rabidly anticommunist than conservatives, since they have to prove their anticommunist credentials. You are a very silly and naive person if you believe this. We don’t need “propaganda” to be anticommunist–communism sowed the seed of its own failure without any help from capitalists. And if you want to learn about the most indoctrinated population in history, I suggest that you study Albania under Enver Hoxha, Libya under Khaddaffi, China under Mao, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, or North Korea under Kim _pere et fils_, where disrespecting even a photo of the Dear Leader is punishable by imprisonment in the Kumgang San gulags. Anticommunism is our state religion. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/137 "2003-01-09T12:30:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* No, what I say, and I maintain this, is that Americans are the most propagandized and indoctrinated population in history. \*\* And that is where you lose credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/138 "2003-01-09T12:32:19Z")
I think the propaganda and new blackout was so bad in North Korea, most of them didn’t know the worlds largest sporting event, The World Cup, was taking place next door. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/139 "2003-01-09T13:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **Since I cannot deal with every objection in this thread, I have tried to come up with one that typifies the rest…** By golly, I think **Chumpsky** has come up with a new defense. Essentially, what he is saying is, “I have made so many ridiculous statements in this thread that I don’t have time to do other than ignore the refuting evidence. So I will focus on defending myself against a misstatement of one objection with my usual multi-paragraph diatribe having little or nothing to do with the substance of the objection.” Call it the **Chumpsky** defense, AKA the triumph of persistent bullshit over evidence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100/140 "2003-01-09T13:38:08Z")
Has **Chumpksy** been inducted into the One Trick Pony Marching and Chowder Society yet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-chumpsky-how-about-you-enlighten-us/147100.md?page=8)