# Hey Conservatives! What Makes a Liberal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2000, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189 "2000-12-18T18:21:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pyrrhonist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pyrrhonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyrrhonist)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/81 "2000-12-20T13:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\*So much easier to label people when you can throw around vaguely sinister generalizations instead of bothering to look up facts, isn’t it!) \*\* For a fact try to rememeber Hillary’s failed health care reform. I think the last person to have a hard copy was Vince Foster. 😃 (Just Kidding!) But seriously, how could you not look at that debacle and not see an inkling of socialism? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/82 "2000-12-20T16:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I was thinking specifically of Article 1, Section 8… \ > > So how did we get from things like interstate commerce, post offices, coining money, and the Armed Forces to things like the Endangered Species Act, the National Endowment for the Arts, or Hillary’s (failed, so far) national healthcare plan?\*\* Rather than paraphrasing or cutting and pasting from my previous explanation, which prompted your question regarding “constitutionally mandated services,” I’ll just [link you back to it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=980903#post980903). [Hint: Look for the words: “…special assistance programs, administrative agencies and commissions that society has determined (through representation in the governing bodies) to be important…”] We got to the things you mention, at least the ones that actually exist, because Congress is empowered to make legislation regarding these things and enough people thought they were good ideas that the legislation was produced. (See how easy American Civics can be?) I agree that Hillary’s proposed health care reform is an example of liberal philosophy in action, in that she made a valiant attempt at determining the minimum health care needs of Americans and venturing a plan by which those minimum needs could be assured. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/83 "2000-12-20T21:27:24Z")
This thread gives an excellent check list: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22776](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22776) Have a nice day! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/84 "2000-12-20T22:00:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mjollnir \* > \*\*This thread gives an excellent check list: > \<_deletia_\> > Have a nice day! \*\* Hmmm. I checked the whole thread, **Mjollnir** ; I didn’t see any accurate lists there. Are you sure you linked to the right thread? I think maybe you were confused by the title of the thread into thinking it had some merit as an examination of liberalism. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/85 "2000-12-21T01:03:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Rather than paraphrasing or cutting and pasting from my previous explanation, which prompted your question regarding “constitutionally mandated services,” I’ll just link you back to it. [Hint: Look for the words: “…special assistance programs, administrative agencies and commissions that society has determined (through representation in the governing bodies) to be important…”] That’s why I disagree with your use of the phrase “constitutionally mandated services”. Surely none of your “special assistance programs, administrative agencies, ad nauseum,” are even in the Constitution. In fact, the services you listed from Article I Sec 8 aren’t even mandatory. Congress has the power to do them, but it’s not a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/86 "2000-12-21T14:06:35Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s why I disagree with your use of the phrase “constitutionally mandated services”. Surely none of your “special assistance programs, administrative agencies, ad nauseum,” are even in the Constitution… **milroyj** , perhaps you need to read more attentively. Here’s the portion of my answer to **pldennison** to which you’re objecting: > [@](#): > > …I also believe that Bill Gates _IS_ obligated to contribute to the operation of the government of his state, and to the federal government of the United States so that they may provide constitutionally mandated services. He is obligated **as well** to contribute a share of the funds those governments require in order to provide the special assistance programs, administrative agencies and commissions that society has determined (through representation in the governing bodies) to be important. (bolding added) Now, you’ll notice that my first sentence mentions those “constitutionally mandated” services (Article 1, Section 8, ‘member?) to which I believe Bill Gates’ tax monies must contribute. The second sentence deals with other obligations for Mr. Gates’ money; those obligations include government activities which, _while not constitutionally mandated_, have been determined through legislative authority to be necessary. I hope this paragraphic deconstruction clears things up for you in regard to my claims about Constitutional authority for government services. I do not wish to further examine my statement for its meaning, as I believe it was adequately and clearly phrased in the beginning. Should you wish to add something new to the thread, I would welcome your ideas and comments and will respond enthusiastically. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189/87 "2000-12-22T00:35:26Z")
In your answer to pldennison’s hypothetical, I agree with you up to a point. Bill Gates’ tax monies should go to whatever services the legislature determines are necessary. What I think reasonable people can disagree on is which services are, indeed, necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-conservatives-what-makes-a-liberal/46189.md?page=4)