Hey cyclists, d'ya wanna stop running red lights please?

Precisely.

Yeah, despite the haughty attitude of cyclists here that is particularly grating, the simple fact of the matter is almost no one wants to splatter someone on their windshield. Even if it’s in a situation where there’s no way I could have seen the cyclist, and the accident report clearly marks it as being the cyclist’s fault, I have no desire to send someone to the hospital or the morgue. Would the fact that I couldn’t have prevented the accident make me feel less guilty? Well, I probably wouldn’t feel guilty at all, there’s no sense in feeling guilt if you haven’t done anything wrong. But it wouldn’t make it any easier to stomach, that I’d just killed someone. I’d be pissed that that person, out of arrogance, stupidity, or simple impatience risked their life and paid for it, and I’d be pissed that because they did that, they forced me to play a part in their death.

My mantra while biking is that every motorist is about to do something stupid. Hell, I even cross at green lights cautiously. Not stopping at a red light is just plain stupid.

Can we all at least agree that some of the disagreement in his thread is bound to come form geographical differences? For example, someone who blows a stop sign on a country road where you can see no cars for miles is not the same as someone who runs a red light in mid-town Manhattan during rush hour. Until such distinctions are taken into account, I have little hope for Bike/Car threads. Many posters seem to realise this, but enough don’t that it muddies the ‘discussion.’
My current policy as a cyclist: I stop at stop lights. If, while stopped, it becomes apparent that I could safely walk against the light, then I bike across.

ETA: I say current, because I used to be more of a jerk on the bike.

See, this is why we need freaking two-way yellow lights in the US like they have in Northern Europe. Pretty simple really. It goes Green to Yellow to Red, and right before red goes to green again, the yellow light comes on simultaneously with the red. It takes very little time to use this to judge how much you actually need to slow down.

But I digress, biking in Copenhagen is a real treat. You ought to see the “rush hour” traffic that occurs. They have people standing just off the bike paths handing out newsdalys to passing bikers. It works really well here. I’ve ridden a bike here for 2 years, and I’m thinking of riding when I go back to America. What should I watch out for? I know how most accidents occur though (vehicles turning right into a bike).

The thing is, that doesn’t make it okay. Do you think that motorists who run red lights do so thinking they’re going to get hurt, or hurt someone else? Of course not.

“I didn’t see any other vehicles coming” or, “well, the light just turned so I could get through before anyone started moving” are rationalizations motorists who run red lights use all the time. About the only situation where I really think anyone should be running a red light is in a case where it’s at an intersection where you can see approaching traffic for a significant distance, and there’s no one around whatsoever. Even then, I don’t personally run red lights. The only time I can remember in the past few years I’ve gone through a red light is one two-day period where a particular red light on a road in my town was stuck on red for about 48 hours and traffic had to essentially use it like a stop sign.

Even if you really do only run red lights when you’re sure it’s entirely safe, that doesn’t really mean it is. And even if it is safe, that still makes you an asshole. Traffic lights exist for a reason, to control the flow of traffic. When a light turns red for you, that means it is green for someone else, when you pull out in front of them, stopping them from moving when they have the legal right of way, it means all the people behind that car have to sit there for longer than they otherwise would, in general in contributes to greater traffic delays and traffic congestion. Which contributes to more pollution, and global warming! :wink: But seriously, it is high grade, jerkish behavior to assume that your time is more important than someone else, so the rules of society don’t apply to you.

Last Fall. Downtown Minneapolis. Me driving 20,000 pound Armored Truck down a one-way at 30mph. Approaching a one-way coming from my right. I have a green light.

Guy on bike zips across the front of me, running the red light, looking the other way!

Approximately 0.75 seconds later getting into that intersection and you’d have been splattered like a water baloon over the front of my truck, you stupid sack of shit. (Or maybe that’s it, you’d have splattered like the sack of shit that you are!) Here’s a clue for you: The one way arrow is not pointing in the direction that you’re supposed to look.

I don’t think he ever saw me. OTOH, I damn near had a heart attack in that split second.

I quit that job over Pay for Risk issues. It wasn’t only carrying large amounts of money in a busy setting, it was the driving as well. I figured that it was only a matter of time before I’d nail one of those idiots.

This presumes I have insurance. Mandatory insurance laws are more like guidelines, right? Wanna risk getting creamed by someone with no insurance?

You’re new, aren’t you?

Suspected drunk driver causes fatal pileup

drunk driver injures 7 on the sidewalk

And those are just a quick search on “drunk driver”, more will undoubtedly come up searching with “DUI”, “DWI” and other variations.

Considering all the stupidity that can kill you on the road me running a red light is the least of your problems. Get mad at me when we interact when I cross without having priority?
Get mad at yourselves when you cut me off turning right without indicating, get mad when somebody opens a door of a parked car without using the optional extra’s called mirrors.

I am a life long cyclist and ALL accidents (about 15) I had involve motorist being blind deaf and dumb, none involve my (very adventurous) riding style. So: Mister Motorist piss off!

What he said.

Rights and responsibilities are sides of the same coin. I ride in the road, I follow the rules of the road. No patience and less sympathy for those who want one without the other.

The simple truth of the matter is, motorists with attitudes like yours are precisely why you’ve had so many bad experiences with motorists.

People who think they’re above the rules, whether on four wheels or two, are a big part of minor and major traffic accidents in this country. The only redeeming thing about cyclists who think the laws do not apply to them is, they probably won’t hurt anyone* (although if they run down a pedestrian they would), but that doesn’t change the fact it’s incredibly reckless, stupid, and selfish behavior.

*Not counting family and friends who have to attend your funeral

Sometimes running the red is the SAFEST thing to do. This is particularly the case in cities that are unapologetically designed for automobiles, with no accommodations for cyclists.

For instance, it is quite common for cars to turn right, without signalling or even seeing the cyclist immediately to their right. If I’m stopped at a light, and I get an inkling that the car to the left of me (a) is turning right and (b) doesn’t see me, then the safest place for me to be is anywhere *but *immediately to the right of that car. So if I get the chance to proceed safely through the intersection before the light turns green, that is the best option for me.

There is another situation I’ve described here before, a roundabout where the bike lane basically ends abruptly, and any cyclist on it for the first time is involuntarily channeled south. If you want to go in any other direction (e.g. proceed southeast like the automobiles do, or proceed east like the (unmarked) bike route expects you to do), you have to do something that is some permutation of illegal and dangerous. (The legal thing is actually quite safe, but drivers don’t know that it is legal or safe, so it usually involves nervous drivers and often some honking and fist-waving, which makes it not so safe. We don’t have a lot of roundabouts in these parts, so people don’t know how to work them.)

There is a stoplight a few hundred feet ahead of this roundabout. If I am stopped at that light and I get the opportunity, damned right I’m going to proceed, because if I’m going to have to be doing something potentially unsafe (and unpredictable to drivers who aren’t thinking about cyclists and roundabouts), I want to be doing it when the road is clear and everyone can see me. If I proceed through the first light at the same time as the cars, it will make it far more dangerous for me to go anywhere but south when I get to the roundabout.

(As evidence I offer the measurable fact that honking and cursing never occurs when I run the red, but regularly does when I proceed at the same time as the cars.)

(There are also those fun intersections where the light only changes in your favor if a car drives over the pressure pad or a pedestrian presses the button. So you can wait for a car or a pedestrian, or you can dismount and press the button, or you can run the red light. This of course is a matter of convenience, not safety, but it is frustrating to be subjected to absurd inconveniences like this simply because of your chosen mode of transportation.)

With the exception of morons, nobody is a better judge of what is safe than the person whose life is actually at stake (i.e. the one not encased by a steel cage). There are times when something might appear from the comfort of your car to be unsafe, that might actually be the safest option for the cyclist.

Of course, there will always be moron cyclists who don’t know what’s best for themselves.

But overall, cyclists are at far more risk from drivers than vice versa, and we’re just trying to get where we’re going, just like you are. Next time you get pissed off by a cyclist, please cut her a little slack, and imagine how much longer your commute would take if all those cyclists were in cars.

I live in a country where the cops run red lights (when they are on a bike, without sirens an stuff). :slight_smile:

Yeah, well, the same is true about driving. Braking wastes gas.

Just don’t complain when you get ticketed and/or plowed into.

The thing is… I see these laws as unjust, so I bloody well will complain if I get a ticket (but not to you, Officer!)

I would never complain about being in trouble for braking a law I agreed with.

Thanks for proving my point for me :slight_smile:

I am one of those motorists who HIT A DUMBSHIT ARROGANT SELF-ENTITLED PIECE OF CRAP cyclist.

Fuck you and your attitude. I get to remember watching you bounce off of the curb, as your $2,000 frame wrapped itself around the front forks of my motorcycle.

You thought that you could ignore the stop sign, since you had speed enough and obviously there was no way a vehicle at the stop would enter the intersection in time.

WRONG.

You whined and cried about your precious bike. You whined and cried about me hitting you. You REFUSED to admit that running a stop sign was a BAD idea.

Then. THEN. THEN YOU HAD THE FUCKING GALL TO START SCREAMING AT ME! YOU FUCKING TRIED TO SUE ME!

Luckily I had the nice University free legal and the lawsuit got tossed. Of course, to make that happen I had to have someone call the cops, and I insisted that you get ticketed for running the stop sign.


I see that same entitled bullshit cyclist attitude here that I, heh, RAN into back then. Defend all you like your ignoring of traffic laws as they apply to bikes. Just shut up when your bike is destroyed, you are in a wheelchair, or one of your biking buddies is now residing in two gallon sized ziploc bags.

To be fair I used to run red lights in my mini-pickup/ute all the time.This was when I was working my way through college and delivering papers at 3-4AM. I used to stop, look both ways then go, as there was no one up at that time.

However, just “blowing through red lights” is idiot jerkwad behavior,car or bike.

First line of what Trunk said.

Being a former representative road cyclist who still does a fair bit of miles, hey, that’s cool. I’m happy to oblige. With the exception of motorcyclists, I figure most vehicle drivers are usually only 85% attentive on average anyways, so the more I assume that the missing 15% is gonna get me, the more chance I have of not getting hit. And I would add, that when I too drive my cars (I have a few) my attention often gets distracted by stuff. Far better to reduce the potential of getting hit at an intersection by waiting for the green.

As for the other comments which have been made in this thread regarding relative danger levels, and greater threat levels by vehicle drivers in comparison to cyclists etc? Most of that is what a legal setting would call ad hominem logical fallacy. Yes, it’s true that the majority of cycling injuries and deaths are caused by vehicle drivers not having enough situational awareness - but ultimately, even though it’s true, it’s irrelevant to the actual point raised by the OP. In my opinion, the OP makes a valid point which is worth conceding, and no harm can come from a regular cyclist in doing so.

Ah, you haven’t scratched the surface of the ever so high minded idiocy of the San Francisco bike rider. Apparently, it is quite a badge of honor to ride your bicycle without brakes (scroll to number 3, but this is a common practice now, not reserved for bike messengers). You know, what with the hills and all, this would be a good place to prove how different you are by not being able to stop your vehicle.