# Hey, Darwin, is this enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2000, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618 "2000-05-26T17:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/1 "2000-05-26T17:10:20Z")
Here it is, the compromise (?) between evolution and creationism. Is it enough, would you be satisfied as a parent or teacher? [http://www.natcenscied.org/miller.htm](http://www.natcenscied.org/miller.htm) * * * Message from the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee: This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory, which some scientists present as scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants and humans. No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life’s origins should be considered as theory, not fact. The word evolution may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths, for example, may evolve into gray moths). This process is micro evolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living thing into another, such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macro evolution, has never been observed and should be considered a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things. There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life, which are not mentioned in your textbook, including: Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record, known as the Cambrian Explosion? Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record in a long time? Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record? How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of instructions for building a living body? Study hard and keep an open mind. Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth. I hope somebody blesses their tiny pea picking hearts. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/2 "2000-05-26T17:28:18Z")
Considering they don’t have a clue what is meant by “theory,” no. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/3 "2000-05-26T17:42:00Z")
RealityChuck - I definitely argee Jois - regarding the message from OSTC - (1) evolution does not explain the origin of life, it explains the way species change over time (2) random forces are not part of evolution…the definite “forces” of natural selection, gene mutation, etc. are at work (3) there are examples of transitional fossils (4) “study hard and keep an open mind”…they should practice what they preach ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/4 "2000-05-26T17:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*No one was present when life first appeared on earth. \*\* Oh, really? And just how do they know that? Were they there? ---
**Author:** ![momo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@momo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/momo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/5 "2000-05-26T17:49:40Z")
If at least for giggles, you may find interesting the take on this subject as described in a recent mailbag article, “[How do evolutionists explain the Big Bang, the fact that we haven’t seen animals evolve, etc.?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbigbangmyth.html)” I think this disclaimer contains a number of fallacies that I’m sure will be pointed out by others, but my favorite is this one: > [@](#): > > Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things. Ummm, no. Evolution ain’t random. Variation can be _affected_ by unpredictable influences, but the end result is inexorably connected with the environment. In essence, if it were possible to observe two, closed environments with controlled, identical elements, variations in biological populations within those environments would be identical. That’s about as far from random as you can get. It seems obvious that there’s a little bit more than a bureaucratic ass-covering going on here… on one hand the student is urged to keep an open mind, yet he’s asked specific questions that require an academic understanding of concepts that are, in their words, “not mentioned” in the textbook. I have no issue with the need for a disclaimer concerning this issue. But if the basic message is to keep an “open-mind,” then the creationist who obviously wrote it should’ve kept one too. ---
**Author:** ![soulsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@soulsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulsling)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/6 "2000-05-26T17:53:22Z")
and of course they must be forgetting that makes creationism a “theory” as well… ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/7 "2000-05-26T18:00:40Z")
Lordy me, I wouldn’t be merely dissatisfied; I’d make sure my children never attended a school that promulgated such hogwash. I might implement that by political action, private schooling, moving, whatever. I agree 100% with the statements in the provided link. All I can do is quote from the end: > [@](#): > > By any standard, this disclaimer fails even a modest test of scientific accuracy. Twelve statements are included in the disclaimer. Of these, only five are free of major errors. Three are seriously misleading, and four are downright false. If a biology teacher were asked to mark a written project that contained only five correct statements out of twelve, he would, at best, calculate a score of 42% – a failing grade. > > Our students deserve better. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/8 "2000-05-26T18:48:59Z")
This just might attract a dissenting viewpoint or two in Great Debates. I’ll move the thread there. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/9 "2000-05-26T19:27:43Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*\* > > Message from the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee: > > This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory, > which some scientists present as scientific explanation for > the origin of living things, such as plants and humans. > > I hope somebody blesses their tiny pea picking hearts. > \*\* How do they preface the creationism part of the book? This textbook discusses creation, a widely accepted theory, which some clergy present as a metaphysical explantion for the origin of living things, such as plants and humans. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/10 "2000-05-26T19:55:06Z")
Message from the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee: This textbook discusses the human immunodeficiency virus, which some scientists controversally present as the causative agent of the disease known as Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, or AIDS. No one has ever been inside a T-cell. Therefore, any statement about the effects of a virus on a T-cell should be considered as theory, not fact. The word AIDS may refer to many types of disease. AIDS describes the presence of an HIV infections alongside any of a number of opportunistic infections. It also refers to an HIV infection and a CD4+ T-cell count of less than 200. Since scientists cannot agree on the definition of AIDS, their conclusions should be considered as little more than theory. ## There are many unanswered questions about HIV and AIDS, which are not mentioned in your textbook, including: Why does AIDS occur primarily in homosexuals and IV drug users, two things that are clearly abominations to God? Why do some people get PCP and KS, even though they are HIV negative? How can such a tiny little wad of DNA and protein cause a devastating disease in a complex and wonderfully designed human being? Study hard and keep an open mind. Someday you may contribute to the theories of what causes autoimmune illness. I think this demonstrates similarly bad logic and a similarly poor understanding of the subject matter as the anti-evolution statement. I’ve often made this comparison to creationists–our textbooks say that AIDS is caused by the HIV, as if it were a fact. However, some scientists like Peter Duesberg believe that this is not the case. Therefore, I think that my belief that AIDS is simply the wrath of God against homosexuals and drug users should be taught in science classes alongside the other “theories”, since it is clearly just as valid. Sheesh. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Jimpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c68b51/32.png) [@Jimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/11 "2000-05-26T20:00:55Z")
First– > [@](#): > > Message from the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee: > > This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory, which some scientists present as scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants and humans. It should say “almost every scientist” instead of “some scientists” Second–Does anyone out there who opposes evolution know the meaning of the word “theory”? I’m guessing not. But you know what, the Pope does. Then again, he doesn’t oppose evolution (at least as long as you assign the human soul a divine beginning). From Pope John Paul II’s message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on October 22, 1996– > [@](#): > > “Humani Generis” (Pope Pius XII’s encyclical on evolution) considered the doctrine of ‘evolutionism’ as a serious hypothesis, worthy of a more deeply studied investigation and reflection on a par with the opposite hypothesis. … Today, more than a half century after this encyclical, new knowledge leads us to recognize in the theory of evolution more than a hypothesis. … The convergence, neither sought nor induced, of results of work done independently one from the other, constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory. Both the Humani Generis and Pope John Paul II’s message push the idea of _non-overlapping magisteria_. That is, leave to science the work on the physical creation of the Earth and it’s creatures and leave to religion the spiritual aspects of the Earth, the human existence and the human soul. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/12 "2000-05-26T20:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > "Message from the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee: > > This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory, which some scientists present as scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants and humans. " > > It should say “almost every scientist” instead of “some scientists” No, it should say “every scientist except 2 plus a guy named George.” ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/13 "2000-05-26T22:31:51Z")
Were they SERIOUS about what they were saying about HIV: The only even remotely plausible alternative HIV hypothesis I have ever heard was that there was a 2nd (as of yet undiscovered) virus that causes the low T-cell count, which THEN allows HIV to increase. I seriously doubt there is actually any evidence to support that theory however (as opposed to a wealth of medical evidence for the HIV theory of AIDS). But even that alternate isn’t so bigoted as the one you quoted. sheesh. I personally have no particular problem teaching both evolution and creationism…in parochial schools. Creationism (I feel) does not belong in public schools, as it is not a “scientific” theory, and also would force individuals of non Judeo-Christian heritage to be exposed to mainstream religious beliefs, which would seem to violate the whole separation of church and state thing. But that is just my opinion of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/14 "2000-05-26T22:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Were they SERIOUS about what they were saying about HIV: > \*\* I think that the doctor was trying to show that the 2 statements, evolution and HIV, are equally moronic. Hell, you could even make up a statement like those about gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/15 "2000-05-27T00:30:41Z")
Look, you creationist @#&%. Evolution is a FACT, NOT a "theory". How it works, exactly, is the "theory" part( and it is not impossible there was some "divine guidance"). We are as sure of Evolution as we are of the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun, altho there are a few rabid fundies that do not believe that either. I suppose Oklahoma schools posts THAT as a "theory" that "some scientists believe" too. And I suppose Pi = 3.141597.... is also a "theory" as the Bible says it = 3. I cannot express in words the disgust I have for these subliterate @#%@… ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/16 "2000-05-27T01:34:52Z")
the Oklahoma State Textbook Committee wrote: > [@](#): > > Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record? _cough_ Archaeopteryx _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/17 "2000-05-27T01:59:12Z")
tracer: > [@](#): > > _cough_ Archaeopteryx _cough_ Yeah, but why don’t we see transitional forms between dinosaurs and Archaeopteryx? Or Arch and birds? Or in between those transitional forms? In fact, why don’t we find the whole progression from T. rex to parakeet lined up from top to bottom, with little tags giving the name of each perfectly-preserved specimen? Can you tell me that? Huh? And don’t even start with that “punctuated equilibrium” crap. I don’t understand that, so it can’t possibly be right. Avalongod: [makes appropriate signal with hand over head] Neeeeeyow. I was just re-stating the situation in different terms. I’m sorry if I get overly sarcastic in these situations–it just boggles my mind when legislators and school boards “criticize what they can’t understand”, to quote the Scripture. Plus, I’m studying for my Boards, so I’m slowly losing my mind. Dr. J PS: You mean you don’t accept Dylan’s early albums as Scripture? Heathen! ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/18 "2000-05-27T01:59:54Z")
Hell of a cough you’ve got their Tracer. To Daniel…Although I am a FIRM believer in evolution…as a scientist, I hesitate to call evolution a FACT…but that is only because I subscribe to Karl Popper’s philosophy of falsificationism…that their are no facts, just theories that haven’t been disproven. But I know what you mean, evolutionary theory (despite being a “work in progress”) is IMHO as probably “true” as any scientific theory. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/19 "2000-05-27T03:02:23Z")
Did you see this? [http://www.natcenscied.org/coming.htm](http://www.natcenscied.org/coming.htm) A series of evolution creation lectures, I wish there were more of them! ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2000, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618/20 "2000-05-27T08:26:24Z")
Avalongod: I see what you mean, based on that, I am willing to accept Evolution (that it occurs, not how it occurs) as just as much a fact/theory as the Earth going around the Sun, and Pi = 3.14159… 😃 The Bible clearly states the Sun goes around the Earth, and Pi =3. So, fundies- do the wheels on your car roll? If so, the Bible is not always correct or literal. The Bible is a great work of wisdom, teaching and history, but some errors have crept in. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-darwin-is-this-enough/20618.md?page=2)