# Hey Der Trihs, over here **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926 "2008-11-15T23:48:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/221 "2008-11-17T01:09:21Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > You keep claiming “evidence” yet you provide no cites. Please, delight us with your encyclopedic knowledge – what evidence against souls are you speaking of? I already mentioned some in the very thread you are quoting. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/222 "2008-11-17T01:14:27Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > You keep claiming “evidence” yet you provide no cites. Please, delight us with your encyclopedic knowledge – what evidence against souls are you speaking of? What, didn’t pay attention in high school? The biggest evidence we have against the soul as far as I’m concerned is the way the brain has been shown to house and control just about everything that makes up a human being. I say ‘just about’ cuz there’s stuff we haven’t found yet, but it’s looking like it’s just a matter of time and technology. Another mark against it is the fact that all of the things that tend to hinge on the soul, like ghosts, talking to the dead, etc, have also so far shown to be bogus. And there’s also the whole idea f the soul itself: it’s just an idea. No one seems to know what it is, everyone’s definition is different, and it changes with the times. Shrug, it’s not that hard to find problems with it. Finding evidence for it, or even a reason to think it exists, now that’s the hard part. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/223 "2008-11-17T01:15:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I wish we could get **lekatt** to post in this thread. It would be like pointing a video camera into the TV. Are you mad?!?!?!? Actually, that would be pretty kewl. We could sell tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/224 "2008-11-17T01:27:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I wish we could get **lekatt** to post in this thread. It would be like pointing a video camera into the TV. I don’t think it’s quite fair to compare the two. Unlike **lekatt** , **KGS** can actually have a conversation with people. And **KGS** talks about more than one or two things; if **lekatt** shows up, I **know** what he’s going to say already. And **KGS** doesn’t go on and on and ON and **ON** about the wonders of Love. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/225 "2008-11-17T01:33:25Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > The biggest evidence we have against the soul as far as I’m concerned is the way the brain has been shown to house and control just about everything that makes up a human being. I say ‘just about’ cuz there’s stuff we haven’t found yet, but it’s looking like it’s just a matter of time and technology. Think again. As long as neuroscience assumes the brain is mostly chemical, they are WAY off target. And your logic presumes that the “soul” resides within the brain itself anyway – it’s possible that the brain merely exists as a _channel_ for the “soul”, which is located…elsewhere. > [@](#): > > Another mark against it is the fact that all of the things that tend to hinge on the soul, like ghosts, talking to the dead, etc, have also so far shown to be bogus. Only if you’re a fan of James Randi. > [@](#): > > And there’s also the whole idea f the soul itself: it’s just an idea. No one seems to know what it is, everyone’s definition is different, and it changes with the times. Okay, I’m with you here. We have no consensus on the mere definition of “soul”, and major religions don’t even agree on what happens to the soul after death. I myself have grave reservations against many widely-held beliefs regarding the soul, in particular my previously mentioned theory that the soul is not inherently eternal, and can be devoured or destroyed. As pertains to definition, let’s define Soul = Awareness. By that I mean, your “soul” is always attached to your own specific awareness. You are always yourself, you see the world only through your own senses, and you’ve never been inside another person’s head. Therefore, if heaven / hell / past lives exist, your awareness would continue to exist, _even if you do not remember any other existence._ How’s that for a definition, sound good? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Unlike **lekatt** , **KGS** can actually have a conversation with people. And **KGS** talks about more than one or two things; if **lekatt** shows up, I **know** what he’s going to say already. > > And **KGS** doesn’t go on and on and ON and **ON** about the wonders of Love. Thanks for the compliment…even though it’s basically damning with faint praise. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/226 "2008-11-17T01:40:38Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Think again. As long as neuroscience assumes the brain is mostly chemical, they are WAY off target. And your logic presumes that the “soul” resides within the brain itself anyway – it’s possible that the brain merely exists as a _channel_ for the “soul”, which is located…elsewhere. Neuroscientists don’t “assume” the brain is chemical & electrical; they have massive amounts of evidence for it. And the brain-as-antenna idea doesn’t work; otherwise drugs and brain damage would affect only your senses and motor control, not your memories and mental processes. > [@KGS](#): > > Only if you’re a fan of James Randi. And every other actual scientific, skeptical investigation of such matters. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/227 "2008-11-17T01:49:45Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Is that for real?? I keep sensing that in people – ALL people, it seems – but I wasn’t sure if I was projecting or not. That said, I wish I’d learned that skill…I simply don’t know how to do that. ☹ Yeah–it’s actually a really cool ability. I try not to use it too much, because it’s almost like a drug–delude yourself too much and it becomes involuntary–but over the years I’ve managed to make myself forget things I shouldn’t have known, deliberatly widened my probabalistic imagining of a statistically insignificant happening, and secured comfort in things that look scary to other people. And I think your aura idea is pretty cool. I’m not convinced it’s scientifically sound, but it seems interesting even if it’s a metaphor for something else or whatever. You should just work with it for a while without trying to convince skeptics it fits in with the rest of science–if it does, that will become clear to the people around you eventually as you explore it and its ramifications, and if it isn’t, well, people who want to will still benefit from your readings. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/228 "2008-11-17T02:06:13Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > You keep claiming “evidence” yet you provide no cites. Der Trihs means that despite claims of spirits over centuries, no evidence has ever been put forward. Just like firebreathing, flying dragons really; there are plenty of stories about them, but nobody has ever seen one. As for not providing cites :smack: … in this thread you have claimed without any cites or evidence (_N.B. my responses are in italics_): - I have direct observational evidence that spirits DO exist. No, it’s not in any peer-reviewed journal (not yet) and I haven’t published a thesis yet, but I’m working on one. My evidence could lead to a major breakthrough in theoretical physics… (_This turns out to be mainly your belief that a dead relative is communicating with you, but nobody else can hear them…_) - I can still view your aura, and it gives away your dichotomous lies (_So you can detect lies huh? Have you tested this scientifically?)_ - I’ve claimed direct observational evidence of spirits, and I profess to read “auras” as easily as if they were X-ray photos (_Have you claimed the million dollars from the Randi Foundation for this paranormal ability?)_ - falsification is a HUGE stumbling block to “proving” spirits exist – for one thing, you have to get the spirits to co-operate in order for any theory to be falsified. It doesn’t help that spirits are motivated to hide their presence from humanity, not assert it… (_How do you know what motivates spirits? How many have you communicated with? What is the difference between a spirit that doesn’t communicate and a spirit that doesn’t exist?)_ - it’s entirely possible – and likely – that YOUR soul could be devoured by spiritual demons, right at this moment, without you even knowing it – and if you don’t pay attention to your soul, that process may have already started. _(It’s entirely possible – not likely – that the world was created last Thursday or that the Matrix is a documentary. What evidence do you have of souls being devoured? What do spiritual demons look like?)_ - And there’s plenty of people who believe whole-heartedly that spirits are as real as UV rays from the sun. They can’t all be lying or crazy. _(People send millions of real dollars to imaginary Nigerian Bankers each year. They are all deluded.)_ - if souls DO exist, they are bound by scientific law like all other things in our world _(How do you know this?)_ - There’s also the possibility that unbound souls merely sink to the center of the earth and get destroyed (or, more accurately, “recycled”) by the intense heat & pressure of the Earth’s molten core…but that’s assuming spirits only exist within SpaceTime, which I’ve already pointed out may not be true. _(What reason do you have to believe this?)_ - I’ve studied other sciences and philosophies, including …divination magick _(Oooh - can you tell the future?!)_ - You’re shielding. I can’t read your aura if you shield. _(How do you know shielding exists? What is the difference between a shielded aura and an aura that doesn’t exist?)_ ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/229 "2008-11-17T02:45:35Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Think again. As long as neuroscience assumes the brain is mostly chemical, they are WAY off target. Gosh should I believe, the entire history of science and the hundreds of thousands of individuals that have worked to build it, or a guy off the internet who has admitted to mental problems? > [@](#): > > And your logic presumes that the “soul” resides within the brain itself My logic doesn’t presume anything, it concludes that the brain has nothing to do with the soul. > [@](#): > > anyway – it’s possible that the brain merely exists as a _channel_ for the “soul”, which is located…elsewhere. And it’s possible that there’s an invisible pink unicorn in my backyard. Until I have evidence for either of these two things, I shall continue to not believe in them. > [@](#): > > Only if you’re a fan of James Randi. Ah, the raw hatred of the man who pulled down the curtains and showed you what life is really like. He took away the psychic powers, talking to the dead, dowsing, hauntings, magic, and perhaps worst of all, spoon bending. How dare he, it’s all his fault! No, he didn’t take them away. They never existed. He just had the courage to stand up and say so. > [@](#): > > Okay, I’m with you here. We have no consensus on the mere definition of “soul”, and major religions don’t even agree on what happens to the soul after death. I myself have grave reservations against many widely-held beliefs regarding the soul, in particular my previously mentioned theory that the soul is not inherently eternal, and can be devoured or destroyed. It doesn’t strike you as odd that something that ‘everyone knows’ about, that billions of people believe in, no one can tell you what it actually is? > [@](#): > > As pertains to definition, let’s define Soul = Awareness. By that I mean, your “soul” is always attached to your own specific awareness. Why? Do you have any evidence this is the case, or do you just wish it were so? > [@](#): > > You are always yourself, you see the world only through your own senses, and you’ve never been inside another person’s head. Therefore, if heaven / hell / past lives exist, your awareness would continue to exist, _even if you do not remember any other existence._ How’s that for a definition, sound good? Um, how would your awareness continue to exist without the things it needed when it had a body? How would it see without eyes, hear without ears, etc? From this it would seem the soul needs the body, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/230 "2008-11-17T02:57:58Z")
> [@glee](#): > > - I’ve claimed direct observational evidence of spirits, and I profess to read “auras” as easily as if they were X-ray photos > (_Have you claimed the million dollars from the Randi Foundation for this paranormal ability?)_ It’s not paranormal to me at all, and I’m not going anywhere near the Randi Foundation. I’ve seen how he mocks & ridicules aura readers, and how he spread lies about how the aura works. Besides, I don’t need the money that badly. > [@](#): > > _(It’s entirely possible – not likely – that the world was created last Thursday or that the Matrix is a documentary. What evidence do you have of souls being devoured? What do spiritual demons look like?)_ The Matrix _was_ a documentary. 😃 As for Last Thursdayism, it’s a joke of course, but it does beg the question – if the entire Universe _was_ created Last Thursday, with the appearance of age and our memories pre-written, how would we know?? > [@](#): > > - if souls DO exist, they are bound by scientific law like all other things in our world > _(How do you know this?)_ By defining Science as the foundation for everything. > [@](#): > > - I’ve studied other sciences and philosophies, including …divination magick > _(Oooh - can you tell the future?!)_ There’s much more to divination than prognostication. Aura reading – at least my version of it – is basically divining someone’s True Nature. It’s not something I do all the time, but when discussing paranormal stuff on this skeptical message board, it’s essential. I know from experience how treacherous these conversations can get. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/231 "2008-11-17T03:02:37Z")
You know I didn’t want to say this because I hate using this ability. But I also can read auras. And from reading KGS’ aura, I can guarantee that he’s completely full of shit. Seriously, his aura smells like dookie. And I’m writing a scientific paper about this. So I’ve proven it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/232 "2008-11-17T03:07:48Z")
Just out of curiosity, **KGS** , what does my aura look like? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/233 "2008-11-17T03:11:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Just out of curiosity, **KGS** , what does my aura look like? Orange and pointy. With green on top. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/234 "2008-11-17T03:19:06Z")
**KGS** , you are nearly there, but you need to move away from metaphysical duality into a broader world of pan-dimensional realism (think Schrodinger, but deeper, rather than wider). I suspect your thesis is also nearly ready - as long as you are willing to abandon “verbiage” for a more profound methodology of a corresponding dual-non dual state of being. All in all, humans can transcend the plane (or planes!) of so-called “reality” as long as they are willing to examine and/or abandon long held concepts of validity, or conceptual pragmatism. Good luck with the aura readings over the internet; it is my experience that those using wireless connections will tend to deliver non-validated readings - you may wish to be careful with this. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/235 "2008-11-17T03:19:47Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Aura reading – at least my version of it – is basically divining someone’s True Nature. It’s not something I do all the time, but when discussing paranormal stuff on this skeptical message board, it’s essential. I know from experience how treacherous these conversations can get. Wouldn’t a person with Aspergers be extraordinarily poorly suited for a career as “Aura” reader? My (somewhat dim) understanding of Aspergers is that you would lack the usual “intuitive” basic understanding of other people’s emotions and motivations? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/236 "2008-11-17T03:20:16Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > All in all, humans can transcend the plane (or planes!) of so-called “reality” as long as they are willing to examine and/or abandon long held concepts of validity, or conceptual pragmatism. Great, another woo-woo nutter. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/237 "2008-11-17T03:24:29Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Great, another woo-woo nutter. Methinks you may have been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/238 "2008-11-17T03:37:14Z")
Hey, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it shouldn’t be too surprising when people call it a duck. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/239 "2008-11-17T03:48:22Z")
\ \ ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/240 "2008-11-17T03:48:25Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Hey, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it shouldn’t be too surprising when people call it a duck. And it’s seriously hard to tell _genuine_ ESTP\* mind-readers from the self-parodies and the old ladies who are afraid of fairies\*\*. - Essential Soul Transfer Protocol: The backbone of internet aura reading. \*\* Either the ones who think leprechauns are stealing their sugar cubes, or the ones who think gay people are out molesting children just to spite God. Both are wholly-imagined, faith-based nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=13)